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Subject: how to rate various combinations rss

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Kenneth Rasch
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Not sure how to rate some of the 5-card combinations:

Wich one is the strongest of these 3 combinations, and why?

4 5 6 7 8

4 5 6 7 8

4 5 6 7 8[/COLOR]

And wich one is the strongest of these 2:

[BGCOLOR=#000000]4 4 5 5 5


4 4 5 5 5

And is:

10-10-2-2-2 < 8-8-3-3-3
(do you look at the 3 of a kind first?)

---
Thanks.
 
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Adam Smiles
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The hands are resolved first by rank then by value within a rank. So Straight Flushes beat Full Houses beat Flushes beat Straights.

Among straights and flushes you look at the highest card first. Within the same number red beats yellow beats green. So the Red 8 straight would beat both yellow 8 straights. For the yellow 8 straights, the high card is tied, so you look at the second highest card. The Red 7 beats the Yellow 7.

Among Full Houses you arrange the 3 of a kind first and then the pair. So in your example the 3's over 8's would beat the 2's over 10's. But here is where the rankings differ from poker hands, after you arrange the cards set of 3 over set of 2, you still like at the highest card in the rank

So a set of 1 1 1 2 2 would beat a 1 1 1 4 4 because the red 1 out ranks the yellow 1, even though the pair of 4's is higher than a pair of 2's.
 
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Kenneth Rasch
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Thank you.
I think I got it all figured out now

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the rules were all that clear about these things.
 
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Tom Dufresne
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I wonder about the 11122 > 11144 example.

This seems to violate the rule that numbers take precedence over color. I do not see anything in the rules that would imply full houses are evaluated differently.
 
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Adam Smiles
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tadufre wrote:
I wonder about the 11122 > 11144 example.

This seems to violate the rule that numbers take precedence over color. I do not see anything in the rules that would imply full houses are evaluated differently.


For all 5 cards hands you first compare the type of hands. (straight < flush < full house < straight flush) Then within each hand you place the 5 cards in the appropriate order. Now within each hand type compare the highest single card (using number first, then color). When evaluating the full house you look at the number and color of all 3 cards in the 3 of a kind before you ever look at the pair.
 
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Tom Dufresne
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Quote:
For all 5 cards hands you first compare the type of hands. (straight < flush < full house < straight flush) Then within each hand you place the 5 cards in the appropriate order. Now within each hand type compare the highest single card (using number first, then color). When evaluating the full house you look at the number and color of all 3 cards in the 3 of a kind before you ever look at the pair.


This is a clear explanation of how to evaluate full houses using this method. However, it does not explain why this method should be used instead of one where you compare all the numbers before you compare the color. If I had two all green full houses - 11144 and 11122, 11144 wins because it has higher number cards. If I change any of the colors, 11144 still has higher number cards and the rules state that numbers take precedence over color.

Can you point to a rule in the rulebook or a faq somewhere that says to evaluate it your way?
 
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Mark McEvoy
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asmiles wrote:
For all 5 cards hands you first compare the type of hands. (straight < flush < full house < straight flush) Then within each hand you place the 5 cards in the appropriate order. Now within each hand type compare the highest single card (using number first, then color). When evaluating the full house you look at the number and color of all 3 cards in the 3 of a kind before you ever look at the pair.


So is this to say a flush of red 2-3-4-5-9 beats a flush of yellow 4-6-7-8-9?

I would never have guessed that.
 
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Adam Smiles
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Correct. A flush with a high card of 9 red would beat a flush with a high card of 9 yellow. It would be beaten by a 10 high flush of any color.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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Any reference you can cite in that? The rulebook doesn't make any indication of isolating the high card when comparing combinations, and the reference card only shows two flushes that are identical in all five card values in illustrating that the red beats the green. I don't see a single example in the reference sheet that shows colour-of-high-card being evaluated before rank-of-second-highest-card. I dn't see any text that implis that this is how it should be done.

If this is, indeed, their intent, they really should have put more thought into that reference sheet. Like, making the Green flush have one of its 'depth' cards be higher than the Red flush.
 
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Tom Dufresne
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The straight flush on the reference card is an example of this. A yellow 3-7 beats a red 2-6.

The Days of Wonders forum has a thread on full house ranking and the answer there is as Adam said: 11122 beats 11144.

Thanks Adam. Sorry for doubting you.


http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=3855&start=0&...
 
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Adam Smiles
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tadufre wrote:
The Days of Wonders forum has a thread on full house ranking and the answer there is as Adam said: 11122 beats 11144.

Thanks Adam. Sorry for doubting you.


Note that your example has 3 yellow 1's, which is not possible. If either hand had the rainbow 1, it would win as the rainbow 1 is ranked higher than the red 1.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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tadufre wrote:
The straight flush on the reference card is an example of this. A yellow 3-7 beats a red 2-6.


??? That isn't an example of this issue at all. The debate here is "If the highest card in each combination is of the same rank, which takes precendence: the rank of the second-highest card, or the colour of the highest card?" An example where the highest card does not share the same rank is not really in question. (and for straights and straight-flushes, this in never relevant - by definition, if two straights or two straight-flushes have the same rank of highest card, they also have the same ranks for the other four cards - this ambiguity only affects flushes and full houses)


tadufre wrote:
The Days of Wonders forum has a thread on full house ranking and the answer there is as Adam said: 11122 beats 11144.


Yeah, I saw that on the forum as well. But, near as I can tell, it was answered by a forum member, and not by someone with the authority to defininitively resolve rules ambiguities. It could be someone who saw a rules descree. Or it could be someone spouting off opinion. Or it could be someone who is assuming the online application handles it right (which may or may not be true - Roborally's a good example of a game where the online application on the official site gets the rules wrong).

I understand Adam's rule description and I think it's _probably_ correct (if not immediately intuitive). I just don't understand why DoW hasn't made this clear in the rulebook or the reference sheet or a FAQ. A game publisher really should keep on top of rules ambiguities, but I've seen nothing to imply that DoW has any interest in resolving this rules ambiguity.

That flush example on the Reference Card is pathetic. All they had to do to make this a non-issue is change the green 2 to a 3. But by making the two flushes identical in rank of all five cards, it never addressed the issue of whehter you evaluate rank of ALL cards before falling back on colour, or you evaluate rank of just the HIGHEST card before falling back on colour.
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Ryan O'Rourke
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thatmarkguy wrote:
??? That isn't an example of this issue at all. The debate here is "If the highest card in each combination is of the same rank, which takes precendence: the rank of the second-highest card, or the colour of the highest card?"


The set of 3 determines the winner, by number and if the numbers match then by color (both are elements of rank). You do not even look at the set of 2 in a full house, unless there is a complete match in the set of 3, in both number and color.

This is clear in the Game Dealers' edition of the rules.

Ryan
 
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