Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: Netrunner.. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew Young
Wales
Wellesley
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm sort of intrigued by this game. I had never heard of it until several months ago. Then I had read a few people comment on it and they seemed to really like it. What happened to it?



Andy
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's an old post from WotC's rep on the subject:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.misc/...

Notable excerpt:

NR-L: Netrunner fans are obviously disappointed by WotC's
choice to put the game "on maintenance." What is it that
keeps it there?

RD: To be blunt: lack of sales. If I thought that
Netrunner could generate enough interest to maintain a
limited production schedule, I'd print it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see you're in Mass.
If you're close to Your Move Games (yourmovegames.com), I think the manager there, Ben Peal, plays NR. Ask him for a demo.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Young
Wales
Wellesley
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sure, like anything it dies with a lack of interest/sales. I wonder why people just didn't like it...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Young
Wales
Wellesley
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks man, I just may. I know where that store is though I've never been in b/c of it's focus. Though, now I have a reason.

I wonder how MAGIC just keeps going and going and going..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
medievalbanquet wrote:
Sure, like anything it dies with a lack of interest/sales. I wonder why people just didn't like it...


My two cents. People didn't like it because in constructed format, it's pretty dang broken. Both sides can have some unstoppable cheesy combos, which made actual runs, (other than the final killing run), unneccessary.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Hoden
United States
Omaha
Nebraska
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
What happened to it?

I think a lot of it was that the market was flooded. There were several great CCGs that came and went because they were missed in the flood of otherwise mediocre MTG wannabes.
Netrunner is loads of fun. I came across it when a friend visited from out of town and brought a couple of decks with him. I have gathered my own sets since.
Ed
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Washington
United States
Unspecified
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
medievalbanquet wrote:
Sure, like anything it dies with a lack of interest/sales. I wonder why people just didn't like it...


There are a lot of theories - since NETRUNNER was WOTC's first clear cut flop (JYHAD took some time and did okay on initial orders), people were hot to figure out why; most of the bigger ones have already been offered:

- Too much competition
- Game severely broken and one-sided (most feel the Corp player has a significant advantage)
- Relatively slow-moving compared to other CCG's of the time
- Distribution problems
- Theme of limited appeal to non-techies

Take your choice, or mix and match.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thee Insidius Doktor Glaze & His Sidekick Donut Boy with the Amazing Monkeytime Dancers Ooh!
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
I_have_heard_the_mermaids_singing,_each_to_each. I_do_not_think_that_they_will_sing_to_me... We_have_lingered_in_the_chambers_of_the_sea By_sea_girls_wreathed_with_seaweed_red_and_brown Till_human_voices_wake_us,_and_we_drown
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Check out 'NetRunner: A Post-Mortem' at this link: http://www.zdi.net/jwa/nr-failure.html for a discussion on what became of NetRunner. The highlights are these, copied from the link:

If it's so great, why did it fail?

There have been dozens of suggestions made, showing varying degrees of bitterness towards Wizards of the Coast. Some go so far as to claim that when WotC called for suggestions from the public on how to save the game, they deliberately sat on the responses they got and allowed the game to die -- that, rather than applying these suggestions as remedies to the sales of an already-ailing product, they instead gathered and culled them at their leisure to produce a more cohesive marketing strategy solely for use with other games down the road.

Conspiracy theories aside, there are all sorts of potential factors that may or may not have contributed to the demise of this well-designed game, presented here a la carte so the reader can pick and choose the ones he or she likes best.

* High dabbling cost due to the twin starter packaging. If you wanted to buy just a deck to read the rules and give it a test spin, you had to spend $18 -- twice the outlay of other CCGs.

* The complexity. More casual purchasers are willing to try a simple game than a complex one. Someone who doesn't catch onto the game's subtleties is also more likely to report to friends that it's stupid or mindless, and Netrunner has a lot of subtleties. For example, making a run on a data fort does not necessarily have the sole and exclusive purpose of getting at the cards locked inside that fort, but this nuance isn't readily apparent to most beginning players. Until this and a few other truths are realized, Netrunner is just a boring race to see if Type X ice gets drawn before a Type X icebreaker is.

* The related matter of the disparity in the learning curves between the two sides. The Corp side is much easier to learn, which led newbies to conclude that the game is biased in the Corp's favor. People don't like playing unbalanced games.

* The significant strengthening of the Runner side granted by the Proteus expansion (quite possibly in response to player feedback -- see above), which led experienced players to assert that the game was now biased distinctly in the Runner's favor. People don't like playing unbalanced games.

* An incredibly over-optimistic initial print run. It's a CCG, it's made by WotC, it's designed by Richard Garfield... guaranteed success, right? Unfortunately, Netrunner was released at a time when the gaming community was beginning to exercise self-restraint and not automatically buy into a new game just because it was collectable. Making matters worse, an abundance of supply can appear instead as a dearth of demand (c.f. Fallen Empires). If no one else is buying it, why should I?

* Another problem with its release date: it was less than one month before Magic's Alliances expansion was scheduled to hit the shelves. Gamers had already been waiting for a new Magic expansion for an eternity -- an unprecedented nine months -- and their disposable income was earmarked long in advance.

* Its basis in a short-lived hot genre. In literary and game circles, cyberpunk died faster than disco. This may have nowhere to go but worse: how can "running the 'net" be sexy when email is something you get from your mother nowdays?

* Lack of advertising and support articles following the (adequately publicized) debut of the game, even in WotC's own CCG magazine, The Duelist. A quick visit to WotC's own back issues index shows only three issues with more than one column on the game, all clustered about its debut. Even Proteus didn't elicit more than single-article coverage.

* Misdirecting the advertising that was done during the game's fall. The most-cited example is the full-page spreads in Wired magazine -- apparently the subscriber base for this magazine of technology and cyberspace pop culture doesn't coincide much with typical gamer demographics. (As an aside, I have personally witnessed commercials for Magic, pushing it as a pasttime that exercises one's mind, aired during Beavis & Butt-Head. And yet Magic is still selling...)

* The cancellation of its demo tour part-way through.

* The opposite crimes of using an existing second-party game world license that lacked widespread appeal and brand loyalty (R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk: 2020 role-playing game), yet not developing this background in any way or even presenting it in such a manner that Netrunner players would develop interest therein.

* Its unsuitability for multiplayer games.

* Relatively vague notions of who or what the player, especially a Corp player, represents in the game world. People enjoy games more when they can get a feel for what's going on, what role they play inside the game.

* The lack of factions. The theory, according to one prominent game company manager, is that the presence of factions -- the groups in Illuminati: New World Order, the tribes in Rage, even the colors in Magic, though they aren't available for sale individually -- broadens the appeal of a game. An individual who has no initial interest in the game itself may still identify with one of its factions and be drawn to purchase and investigate it as a result.

* The fact that players must construct and play both a Runner and a Corp deck. Besides being twice the work, twice the learning time, twice the number of cards to purchase, and two different states of mind that must be developed, it's also a counterpoint to the faction argument above. Players who were drawn to Netrunner by an attraction to just the Runner or the Corp motif discovered they couldn't play only their favorite side, and this soured them.

* Few powerful rares. This, in combination with a fourth rarity class more common in starter decks than Commons, made it less necessary to buy large quantities of cards to build functional decks. (One would think that Netrunner's lack of per-card limits in decks would counteract this. Apparently not.)

* Lack of, and large time between, expansions. Without steady expansions, strategies stagnate and the game as a whole becomes less interesting. It's easier to keep interest than regain it.

* The abstract nature of some of its art.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slyvanian Frog
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Theories that Netrunner would not sell well always remind me of why not to get heavily into CCGs. When I see booster boxes going on eBay for $60+ now, and think that is a gross and outrageous price for 500 pieces of printed cardboard, I only have to remember that for CCG companies, $60 for a booster box is a huge discount. And a booster box give you nowhere near all of the "pieces" for the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Rossney
United States
San Francisco
California [CA]
flag msg tools
Avatar
Quote:
And a booster box give you nowhere near all of the "pieces" for the game.


Depends on the game. You can play a lot of Netrunner out of a pair of sealed starter decks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Baumbach
United States
Omaha
Nebraska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The other thing you can tack on to there is the amount of time it takes to play a round of NR.

My friend and I, even after we had the sequence of play and all the options down, could never finish a game in under an hour and a half. Which made it a game we could only play if we had two hours on our hands.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
UhhhClem wrote:
Quote:
And a booster box give you nowhere near all of the "pieces" for the game.


Depends on the game. You can play a lot of Netrunner out of a pair of sealed starter decks.


Yep. The lack of "factions" (and other CCG-mainstays) makes NetRunner one of the best limited-format (straight sealed starters, or draft a few boosters) CCGs out there.

Especially if you avoid the expansions -- just play straight sealed/draft with a handful of the base set cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Brannan
United States
Rockville
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dr glaze et al wrote:
Check out 'NetRunner: A Post-Mortem' at this link: http://www.zdi.net/jwa/nr-failure.html for a discussion on what became of NetRunner. The highlights are these, copied from the link:

If it's so great, why did it fail?



I'll add my own $.02, which is overpriced for what you're getting

Quote:

* High dabbling cost due to the twin starter packaging. If you wanted to buy just a deck to read the rules and give it a test spin, you had to spend $18 -- twice the outlay of other CCGs.


Interesting artifact of that time period's games. C*Gs these days almost all require an initial outlay of $20 or more. I wonder if this reason would still stand in today's environment.



Quote:

* The complexity. More casual purchasers are willing to try a simple game than a complex one. Someone who doesn't catch onto the game's subtleties is also more likely to report to friends that it's stupid or mindless, and Netrunner has a lot of subtleties. For example, making a run on a data fort does not necessarily have the sole and exclusive purpose of getting at the cards locked inside that fort, but this nuance isn't readily apparent to most beginning players. Until this and a few other truths are realized, Netrunner is just a boring race to see if Type X ice gets drawn before a Type X icebreaker is.


Another early CCG artifact. Looking at some of the games these days (Keeping track of 4-5 different resource pools, balancing the randomization number printed on the corner of the cards for "rolls", etc) I wonder if this game would still be seen as complex.

Quote:

* The related matter of the disparity in the learning curves between the two sides. The Corp side is much easier to learn, which led newbies to conclude that the game is biased in the Corp's favor. People don't like playing unbalanced games.


Interesting, I found the Corp much harder to play. There was never enough time or resource to adequately protect every way into your base. You had to cover your hand, your deck, and (to a lesser extent) your discard pile before you could really begin to build up a research center to advance an agenda. Easier to learn, harder to do well. But I will agree that people have a *very* hard time swallowing a non-symmetric game.

Quote:

* The significant strengthening of the Runner side granted by the Proteus expansion (quite possibly in response to player feedback -- see above), which led experienced players to assert that the game was now biased distinctly in the Runner's favor. People don't like playing unbalanced games.


IMO, the game was dead before Proteus was released, so Proteus had no discernable impact on the longer term success of the game.


Quote:

* An incredibly over-optimistic initial print run. It's a CCG, it's made by WotC, it's designed by Richard Garfield... guaranteed success, right? Unfortunately, Netrunner was released at a time when the gaming community was beginning to exercise self-restraint and not automatically buy into a new game just because it was collectable. Making matters worse, an abundance of supply can appear instead as a dearth of demand (c.f. Fallen Empires). If no one else is buying it, why should I?


Probably true, someone said at the time "Every CCG will sell out it's initial print run. Almost none will sell out their second (or expansion)" Combined with WotC's sense of invincibility at the time, (even the advertising for the game had that "it's Richard Garfield, therefore it's good" swagger to it).


Quote:

* Another problem with its release date: it was less than one month before Magic's Alliances expansion was scheduled to hit the shelves. Gamers had already been waiting for a new Magic expansion for an eternity -- an unprecedented nine months -- and their disposable income was earmarked long in advance.


I don't recall this timing, I thought Netrunner was released earlier than that. But surely I'm the one who's wrong here. IIRC, Magic itself was in a bit of a downturn around this time.


Quote:

* Its basis in a short-lived hot genre. In literary and game circles, cyberpunk died faster than disco. This may have nowhere to go but worse: how can "running the 'net" be sexy when email is something you get from your mother nowdays?


I would almost say it was too early. If it was releaed a few years later, with all of the Matrix hype running around, it might have done better. Even now, an adapted version of it would be able to capitalize on people's current knowledge of Phishing, identity theft, viruses, and "piracy".

Quote:

* Lack of advertising and support articles following the (adequately publicized) debut of the game, even in WotC's own CCG magazine, The Duelist. A quick visit to WotC's own back issues index shows only three issues with more than one column on the game, all clustered about its debut. Even Proteus didn't elicit more than single-article coverage.


Yes, definite poor support from WotC. See invincilibity/swagger above.


Quote:

* Misdirecting the advertising that was done during the game's fall. The most-cited example is the full-page spreads in Wired magazine -- apparently the subscriber base for this magazine of technology and cyberspace pop culture doesn't coincide much with typical gamer demographics. (As an aside, I have personally witnessed commercials for Magic, pushing it as a pasttime that exercises one's mind, aired during Beavis & Butt-Head. And yet Magic is still selling...)


Right-ish audience, wrong magazine. Something like 2600 would have done better for them, I think.


Quote:

* The cancellation of its demo tour part-way through.


It may just be me, but I've never seen a demo team have an impact beyond pushing a few more impulse purchases, which lead to an extremely rare long term fanbase. I don't think this killed the game.

Quote:

* The opposite crimes of using an existing second-party game world license that lacked widespread appeal and brand loyalty (R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk: 2020 role-playing game), yet not developing this background in any way or even presenting it in such a manner that Netrunner players would develop interest therein.


Yes.

Quote:

* Its unsuitability for multiplayer games.


Kind of the opposite of Jyhad's unsuitability for 2 player games. Less of an issue than the "2 decks required" below.

Quote:

* The lack of factions. The theory, according to one prominent game company manager, is that the presence of factions -- the groups in Illuminati: New World Order, the tribes in Rage, even the colors in Magic, though they aren't available for sale individually -- broadens the appeal of a game. An individual who has no initial interest in the game itself may still identify with one of its factions and be drawn to purchase and investigate it as a result.


Interesting, hadn't considered this...


Quote:

* The fact that players must construct and play both a Runner and a Corp deck. Besides being twice the work, twice the learning time, twice the number of cards to purchase, and two different states of mind that must be developed, it's also a counterpoint to the faction argument above. Players who were drawn to Netrunner by an attraction to just the Runner or the Corp motif discovered they couldn't play only their favorite side, and this soured them.


Big one, here. You can't focus on a single faction like in other games (especially crucial for low-dollar investment in a game, you play a red-green Magic deck, you can safely trade away all of your White, Blue and Black rares to fill in your deck. Instead, all cards are valuable for you.

Quote:

* Few powerful rares. This, in combination with a fourth rarity class more common in starter decks than Commons, made it less necessary to buy large quantities of cards to build functional decks. (One would think that Netrunner's lack of per-card limits in decks would counteract this. Apparently not.)

IIRC, the design of NR was supposed to be such that the commons would be the most powerful cards, while rares would be powerful for only very specific situations. I don't think they achieved this, as many of the "power" decks of the time still required multiple copies of a lot of rares.

Quote:

* Lack of, and large time between, expansions. Without steady expansions, strategies stagnate and the game as a whole becomes less interesting. It's easier to keep interest than regain it.


Possibly, as I said, it was dead before the first expansion was released.



I wonder how NR would fare today, certainly the CCG market is nowhere near where it was, but with some tweaks it certainly could drop a few of the downsides. Even a release as a set of pre-constructed, non-collectible decks (ala Blue Moon), or an all in one set (ala Vortex/Maelstrom or INWO:One with everything)has promise.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Thatcher
United States
Lake Forest
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Very interesting discussion. I have only played one game, but the "feel" of NR is more like a boardgame than a CCG to me, especially if you are playing out of sealed starters.

Are there any players in the NY area? I would love to start playing this on a (semi) regular basis...

Kevin
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Edwards
United Kingdom
London
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Deckbuilding was also very opaque for a starting player (and required a whole different approach from corp to runner). In magic you need to add land to play your spells. Pretty simple concept that still trips starting players up. A net runner deck had to balance cards to gain money, draw cards, search for cards, retrieve cards, several different kinds of ice (for corp), several different kinds of programs including to break through different ice (for runner) and all sorts of miscelleneous cards.

While I like the game out of a starter, once you got past that and played with small pool, decks were generally very unfocused. With magic and a couple of boosters it is easy to throw in some land and build a "green deck" or a "red deck". Net runner was much more difficult.

Also I think that due to the way corp and runner decks were built they didnt match up particular well. Depending on each decks focus one deck tended to have a very good or very low prospect of beating another given deck (this is of course the same in magic but I think more of an issue for NR). A "tag and bag deck" corp deck which focused on tagging the runner and beating them around the head with direct attack cards would almost always beat a runner deck that didnt have a fair degree of protection to those cards. Add enough protection and the tag and bag deck couldnt win. In that kind of "one-up" environment its difficult to have a series of balanced games.

At a higher level, the best decks focused on decreasing the level of interactivity between the players so the deck could achieve its objective (ie I search for and play my combo and win regardless of what you do). I remember building a deck that as corp focused on scoring an agenda that provided money very quickly and converted that money to extra actions so that I could play and score more agendas and win before the runner even had a chance to run on the data fort. Printing really good search tools and not limiting the number of the same card that could be played made assembling these combos pretty easy. That really wasn't that fun.

If I was playing today I would focus on building a couple of different "generic decks" with a little bit of this and that and make sure they play reasonably well against the other. The most fun I ever had playing net runner was playing in a couple of sealed deck tournaments with a starter and a booster or two of proteus.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
フィル
Australia
Ashfield
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I've got an 808 and a 303 and a record collection like the ABC
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A double starter is more than enough to have a great game. No need for deckbuilding.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve McIlhatton
New Zealand
Palmerston North
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Be nice if this was tweaked a bit and released in a non-collectible format...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Young
Wales
Wellesley
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very cool discussion.

I'm actually more interested in the game now based upon some of the comments. For example, I don't want to have to spend my days constructing 15 different decks for different situations. Perhaps, I'll love it in its starter deck format.

ninja
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon W
United States
Aurora
CO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
medievalbanquet wrote:
Perhaps, I'll love it in its starter deck format.

I think that's where it excels, but then I'm way over the top in terms of how much I like the game. The notion of a CCG in its "normal" form, with tons of deck design and tuning, a vast metagame, and so forth, just doesn't work for me. But NR is basically perfect as a deal and play game, provided you keep with the constraints of the starters (certain # of agendas, certain ratio of "vitals" so both parties have a reasonable deck). There are also some sealed deck generators available that let you create a pseudo-starter out of a pile of cards, which is appealing once you've played out a given starter set (which takes a while, but...you will want variety). Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the one I liked best, but here's a link to another:

http://www.bitblaster.com/l2k/nr/starter/starter.html
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Edwards
United Kingdom
London
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
The games plays well out of starters because it is an interesting game, the different sides are fairly well balanced and the decks themselves have a reasonably mix of different things you can do. Because in netrunner you can largely choose how you spend your actions that adds up to a fair bit of variability in how games come out.

Its important to note though that a "starter" for netrunner was as I remember it mostly fixed (so you got the same cards from starter to starter).

I think an inherent limitation of that kind of format is that you are going to get a bit bored after a certain number of games (the number probably depends on the individual). Think if you were playing blue moon and just played vulca vs hoax against each other again and again. After a certain number of games you come to realise how each decks wins and what cards you need to draw to implement that victory. At that point it often comes down to whether you draw the cards you need which are pivotal to the matchup. Foe example in playing netrunner out of a starter pack as a runner the best way by far of making money was by playing the broker card. If you drew your broker you had a much higher chance of winning than if you didn't.

Eventually even the most die hard of players will want to expand their options a bit.

In my view thats where netrunner fell down for a number of players. Deck building for new players was difficult (much more complex I think that making starting decks for magic say) because you had to balance a whole lot of different things to make your deck work. That put people off. At a higher level, as Ive said, decks became extremly focused, were based largely on combos, involved less different cards (I had decks with 7 or 8 copies of the same card in them) and tried to avoid interacting with the opponent at all.

Add the fact that the game had no multi-player playability and I don't think its really surpising that it didn't take off. It was a good game but not a particularly popular one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Dignam
United States
Lithia
FL
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just my $0.02 to add to the pile.

This is still the best CCG I have ever played.

One of the reasons this game failed was that it really did play well out of the box. Maybe too well. Regardless of what others have asserted you can beat a constructed deck pretty well with a sealed deck almost 1/2 the time. CCGs depend on players building the best deck money can buy, and there wasn't that much emphasis to do that in NR. So it was a slow mover.

I think this game should be re-released as a complete game in a non-collectable format, unfortunately many still may not get the cyberpunk genre.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dardia
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Kevin Thatcher,

I live in Brooklyn and used to play Netrunner when I lived in SF. I now play all sorts of games at a club called Metrowargamers in Park Slope (web site is http://www.nycwargames.com/). Send a message and we can arrange some time to come by the club.

Michael
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.