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Subject: GeekModders not paying attention rss

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Paul DeStefano
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Oh, come on, people! Read the rules.



In particular, the following are not reasons for rejecting an otherwise good image:

Image contains modified components.



Showing C&C:Ancients with full minis should not be approved according to that guideline.
 
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Tuuli Mustasydän
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Quote:

In particular, the following are not reasons for rejecting an otherwise good image:

Image contains modified components.


(Emphasis mine)

Not a reason for rejection, so your aforementioned picture is a candidate for approval.
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Paul DeStefano
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I see this as not being modified components - I see it as totally different. Modification requires some piece of the original. These pictures bear no resemblance to the game as purchased.
 
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David Namaksy
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There are a lot of stuff that should not get by (IMHO), but I try my best.

Of the images you have moderated:
Your Matches for Approval: 444 out of 525 (85%)
Your Matches for Declined: 108 out of 184 (59%)
Overall Percentage: (78%)

It seems I am a bit tougher on some of the images than most. And I just reject on one of the posted reason. A large number that I have voted to approve, I really did not like.
 
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Chris Shaffer
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The C&C Ancients with full minis pictures are pretty neat. I like them and am glad they were approved.
 
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Ken B.
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Well, I'm tougher too when I get the chance to actually Geekmod any images. I've declined 6 and only 1 of those ended up being declined.


As far as all the minis photos for C&C, and coupled with the posts people have made about either being disappointed with the blocks are actively seeking alternative components, screams to me that they possibly didn't make the best choice in using blocks for that game.

In that respect, since many are seeking alternative minis/components, those images may indeed be serving a purpose for fans of that game. So I say let 'em in.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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TheCat wrote:
The C&C Ancients with full minis pictures are pretty neat. I like them and am glad they were approved.


But if a casual user comes, looks at those pics and oredrs the game, I think they're going to be mighty annoyed.

I take the 'modified' to mean showing painted minis that came with the game. Not excess purchases that exceed the games original value.
 
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Matthew M
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Geosphere wrote:
I see this as not being modified components - I see it as totally different. Modification requires some piece of the original. These pictures bear no resemblance to the game as purchased.


We should get rid fo the Days of Wonder pics showing their house copy of Shadows Over Camelot then as well.
[/sarcasm]


Those C&C Ancients pics are perfectly acceptable.

-MMM
 
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Paul DeStefano
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I think they deserve some sort of "non-production" warning on them.
 
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David Namaksy
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If someone submits a picture with modified board or game pieces it should be commented to reflect that.
 
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Mike Pranno
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I think I agree more with Paul on this one. We really need some sort of "alternate reality" group for pics like this. I will admit that because most of the other photos contain the blocks of C&C:A, it is highly unlikely that a random buyer will be fooled. But what about other games like The Brotherhood.

And what about the C&C:A picture that has mini AND is taking place on the Memoir '44 board? The way I see it, the only thing it has in common with C&C:A is the scenario (and rules). The picture alone has NOTHING... unless I missed seeing the dice. Even Meepleville pics are at the very least showing some sort of related game component.

There is a fine line between database-value and art-value. I like to see both... preferrably in the same picture.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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generalpf wrote:
In any case, what does it matter to you?


BGG is viewed as a service to many shoppers. It is a communally built database. As a kindness to those potential shoppers, I would like to do my part to point them the right way.
 
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Mike Schmidt
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Though I know it would be a large chore I think it would be nice to have images sorted to have a "stock" category to show only components as they are in the box when you get them. Maybe another folder for "modified/painted" and another "miscellaneous" for the images with cats, people playing, etc. I know this would be a huge undertaking with the number of images on BGG, but I think it would be a huge improvement.

-Mike
 
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Ken B.
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Geosphere wrote:
generalpf wrote:
In any case, what does it matter to you?


BGG is viewed as a service to many shoppers. It is a communally built database. As a kindness to those potential shoppers, I would like to do my part to point them the right way.



Well, I see your point, Paul. I think those images could certainly use a flag of some sort.

However, as far as being "customers", remember that BGG serves customers both before AND after a purchase. I probably spend more time on a game's forums and pages AFTER I get the game than before. Those minis photos do serve a purpose for those who are not happy with the original components.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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generalpf wrote:
I think they'd figure it out when only one or two out of 100+ pictures show those figures.


Actually, something more like 8 of 58 pics show components not included. (my numbers may be off, I didn't look in enlarged mode, but its about that)

That's about 14% of the pictures showing components not part of the purchased game, and a bunch just show the box/rules, etc.

I think its way too easy for someone to miss the fact that the game comes with blocks.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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generalpf wrote:
what other people can do and are doing with the game.


It should be noted as such.
 
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Robert Martin
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Geosphere wrote:
BGG is viewed as a service to many shoppers. It is a communally built database. As a kindness to those potential shoppers, I would like to do my part to point them the right way.


This is a hobbyist website, not a shopping mall. I'd hate to think of getting rid of the amazing 3D Settlers tiles, wooden Dune boards, and painted War of the Rings miniatures because they're not included in the box. These are fun things for hobbyists to share and discuss. Shoppers can go look at accurate pictures on Funagain's site.
 
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Jason
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Paul,

Photos with nonstandard components have been on the game pages since I joined in 2004. Why exactly is this an issue for you with this particular game when it has been going on forever? If anything, the problem is minimized in the image pages for this game because the photos with non-standard components almost all have image comments discussing which brand of miniatures they subbed into the game or which size blank dice they used to make new dice. This is helpful information for those wanting to modify their game and definitely belongs here.

This theoretical shopper you speak of would have to be INCREDIBLY dumb to think the miniatures came in the game considering every review for the game discusses the blocks over miniatures decision and each image with miniatures appears to have a different brand of miniatures in them.

I can understand if in general substitute components in photos is an issue for you, but if so why did you wait to bring it up now?

Additionally, claiming Geekmods are not paying attention just because you don't agree with the current rule standards allowing images with modified/alternate components is misplacing the blame. If you want these images rejected or Aldie to implement a marking system for non-standard images, the way to do it is by posting the suggested changes in the suggestions folder, not by attacking your fellow Geeks for submitting/approving images that are allowed under the current system.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Jasonofindy wrote:
I can understand if in general substitute components in photos is an issue for you, but if so why did you wait to bring it up now?


I'd never seen it before. Painted, sure, but completely substituted?
 
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Jason
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Just off the top of my head I can recall:

Scribinus's images of Wizard's Quest being played with minis instead of the counters it comes with,

Multiple images of Plunder with all the ships replaced with minis or PotSM ships and all the money replaced with gold coins,

3D boards and pieces for Dungeon Twister,

Twilight Struggle using wooden cubes as control markers

Multiple other games being played with alternate coins and/or goods markers

I know that there are many more examples in the database, but I honestly can't recall others off the top of my head at this time.


There have been multiple other threads on this issue in the past advocating a change to either ban or mark such images. For what it is worth, I agree that it would be nice for there to be a way for an image to be marked as using nonstandard components. It WOULD be a helpful addition to the database.

I just disagreed with the way you went about attacking the Geekmodders when all they were doing was following established policy. I think these images with nonstandard components are interesting and on topic as they do add to the discussion of the games and at least relate to playing the games. I personally wish that all silly cat/dog/infant pictures that have absolutely nothing to do with the game could be flushed from the database because they add no useful information.

Jason
 
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Randy Cox
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I agree that there's way, way, way too much junk getting through via the new GeekMod process. I think the formula for acceptance needs to be tweaked a lot, so that it takes an overwhelming approval rate for a picture to make it into the database.

Before long, we'll end up with a bunch of custom components, each excruciatingly depicted with a separate image for every soldier, in every possible pose. And we'll have every individual counter with it's own image. And we'll see the card fronts, backs, and edges. You'll never want to wade through a popular game's image section because it will take days to find the image of the box and components all laid out in a nice array.

So, Scott and Derk, how about an image has to get a huge number of approvals and very few declines before it hits the database?
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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Quote:
I'd never seen it before. Painted, sure, but completely substituted?

Paul, I'm the one who posted the C&C picture of Gaugamela on the M44 board (by the way, I've just posted a second one that has been accepted). I share part of your feelings, the only reason I decided to post them now (I have them for more than one year) is that one of the main subjects of C&C threads are about where to find, and how would they look like, replacement miniatures. Plastic, metal, 2-6-20-25 mm, AoM or CotE... and each solution leads to very different costs, so I thought many BGG users would find it useful to see how this kind of miniatures look like on the board. For the cost others have provided lists of boxes needed.

I know, it's not the C&C board (I bought the game 3 weeks ago, still waiting!), but come on, it's the same hex grid with the same size (from the same designer). It's like rejecting a picture of Chess with chess pieces on a 8x8 square board coming from another game... That being said, I didn't expect the pictures to be accepted for reasons like the ones you are giving, I would have understood. But they have been accepted, and that I understand too!

The argument of people being upset when buying a game and not finding all the components they saw on BGG pictures, it has been raised several times since I'm a BGG user, but I've never heard of someone complaining about this really happening. In french we say "I saw the man who saw the man who saw the man ... () ... who saw the bear" but impossible to find the last guy! And I agree this could happen for a very unexpensive game (you don't care to check whatever comes with it), but I assume that someone ready to pay $65 for C&C makes a tiny effort to understand what is and what is not in the box (by the way, the bonus scenarios are not in the box you buy now but they appear in some pictures).

Anyhow: 1) I understand that some may feel the way you do; 2) I agree that the same (or at least similar) rules should apply to all of us; 3) One of the (many) reasons I like BGG is the chance to see what people are able to do with the games once they get them!


 
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Quinn Munnerlyn
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I think the picture is fine. Like others have said photos of what players do with their games is something most folks would like to see or it wouldn't have gotten approved in the first place.

If you feel obligated to let people know that they aren't the original pieces (something that is pretty obvious from the start since the majority of the pics don't show those pieces) then feel free to make an image comment about it. You've satisfied your sense of propriety and everyone gets to see the image.

Why try to force your own ideals onto other peoples votes? The guidelines accept modified games so it seems pretty clear to me. Yes the pieces were replaced in whole, but the game itself wasn't.

Are we to not allow photos of homemade versions of games? That would be a shame too.
 
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