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Subject: Limes and Bretwalda rss

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Dave Twigg
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Hi all -

I haven't gotten to play this yet, but I recently bought the FFG edition and after reading through the rules it sounds like one of the most unique and fun games that I've come across. But I do have 2 questions, probably more if I think about it but I'll limit it to two for the time being:

1. The Romans are different from the other armies in just about every way imaginable, but one rule has me stumped. On their nation card it says that at the end of round 5 the Romans get points for holding specific areas, but it also says to count the Roman limes. Does this mean that after round 5 you simply count their limes and score the points listed on the card based on what areas they're in, OR do the Romans also get points for areas that they are specifically holding at the end of the round. This would mean that for some areas they'd get double points, since by definition if they're holding an area they get a fort there, and therefore a lime. So it seems more likely that you just figure the points for areas with forts and areas held by subject nations and leave it at that. But I'm not quite sure, so I wanted to ask before I try teaching it to friends, which will be a chore in and of itself.

2. The whole bretwalda concept confuses me a little bit. If each nation gets a vote for each area they hold at the end of a bretwalda round, why wouldn't each player just spend all their votes on whichever of their own nations is most beneficial to them, i.e., a nation that may be lagging in points because of bad die rolls or whatever. The rules say that any player can request a secret ballot, but I'm not sure I see the point in that, as after a few plays the players should be able to make a quick survey of the points each nation has and pretty much guess who's going to win the election. Or am I missing the point here: maybe the point is to plan ahead for the bretwalda rounds and try and secure as many English areas as possible to assure yourself of the bretwalda and the points. More of a strategy question than a rules question I guess, but like I said I haven't played yet, and there may be nuances to the bretwalda that I'm just not aware of.

Thanks guys, I can't wait to play, it looks absolutely brilliant. And thanks also to Dr. Pulsipher for getting together with Fantasy Flight to bring this bad boy out again! I wasn't into gaming the first time around but I'm stoked for the chance to try it now
 
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Eric Brosius
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You do want to secure Bretwalda votes, but if one player is ahead isn't it possible for the others to band together to vote for the last-place player as Bretwalda rather than let the leader get further ahead?
 
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Doug Adams
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Swiggan wrote:
Hi all -
1. The Romans are different from the other armies in just about every way imaginable, but one rule has me stumped. On their nation card it says that at the end of round 5 the Romans get points for holding specific areas, but it also says to count the Roman limes. Does this mean that after round 5 you simply count their limes and score the points listed on the card based on what areas they're in, OR do the Romans also get points for areas that they are specifically holding at the end of the round. This would mean that for some areas they'd get double points, since by definition if they're holding an area they get a fort there, and therefore a lime. So it seems more likely that you just figure the points for areas with forts and areas held by subject nations and leave it at that. But I'm not quite sure, so I wanted to ask before I try teaching it to friends, which will be a chore in and of itself.


That is a really good question. I'm sure we played it that the Roman player only scored Limes at the end of round 5, but looking at the rules I can see it reads both ways. Our Roman player played a pretty flawless game with all his nations, and ended up about 50 points behind the winner in last place. It struck me as odd - perhaps this is why?

Our approximate scores were Red 222, Blue 218, Green 206(?) and Yellow (170?).

Cheers
Doug
 
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Dave Twigg
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Quote:
You do want to secure Bretwalda votes, but if one player is ahead isn't it possible for the others to band together to vote for the last-place player as Bretwalda rather than let the leader get further ahead?


This is true - I guess if one player owns the vast majority of the areas then it's obvious which player will get the bretwalda vote for one of their nations, especially if they're already in the lead or close to it. But if the areas are fairly closely divided amongst the players then maybe this is the proper strategy. Seems obvious now that you mention it - can you tell I'm not much of a "hardcore" gamer, or much of a successful gamer at all, for that matter ? The thought never even occured to me, though it probably would have while actually playing the game.

Thanks for the help
 
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Mark Ynys-Mon
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re. Limes:

Dr Pulsipher's latest version of the rules on his website state:

14.4 LIMES
Limes is the name given by the Romans to their defensive lines/walls such as Hadrian's Wall and the "Saxon Shore" forts which were built as defense against barbarian raids. Points will be scored at the end of turn 5 for each area which is (a) occupied by an undestroyed Roman Fort, or
(b) occupied by a subject nation.

cf with the version in the FFG Rules:

Limes at the End of Round V
Limes is the name given by the Romans to their defensive
lines/walls such as Hadrian’s Wall and the “Saxon
Shore” forts, which were built as defenses against barbarian
raids. The Romans score points at the end of
Round 5 for each area listed on their Nation Card that is
either (a) occupied by an intact Roman fort, or (b) occupied
by a subject nation
 
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Dave Twigg
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Quote:
Romans only score points for areas that have an undestroyed Fort (note that this is potentially different from areas the Romans occupy...it is possible for a fort to be destroyed and a Roman army to subsequently occupy the area - in this case the area would NOT score limes points) and subject nations.


Thanks Caleb, especially for the bit about the Romans NOT scoring points for areas with a destroyed fort even if they're "holding" it anyway. I had forgotten that once a fort is destroyed then there's no chance of having another one in that area.

So, the Romans NEVER score points based on whether or not they're "holding" the area, their scoring is entirely dependent on limes. At least as far as the end of round 5 is concerned. Obviously they have other ways of scoring too in previous rounds.

Awesome, that should clear it up. Thanks guys!
 
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Mark Ynys-Mon
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cnd_77 wrote:
Limes is just another name for the Roman T5 scoring. The areas listed are scored by intact forts or subjugated nations. Romans only score points for areas that have an undestroyed Fort... and subject nations.


Probably a thick question, but how many points?

One per fort? One per area? When we played this on Saturday we could not find any reference to the numbers. The Nation Card says see the Rules and the Rules say nothing about numbers.
 
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Doug Adams
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mym-uk wrote:
cnd_77 wrote:
Limes is just another name for the Roman T5 scoring. The areas listed are scored by intact forts or subjugated nations. Romans only score points for areas that have an undestroyed Fort... and subject nations.


Probably a thick question, but how many points?

One per fort? One per area? When we played this on Saturday we could not find any reference to the numbers. The Nation Card says see the Rules and the Rules say nothing about numbers.


It's listed on the Roman reference card under round V scoring. Lots for York, Cheshire, Essex, etc.

 
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Mark Ynys-Mon
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dougadamsau wrote:
mym-uk wrote:
cnd_77 wrote:
Limes is just another name for the Roman T5 scoring. The areas listed are scored by intact forts or subjugated nations. Romans only score points for areas that have an undestroyed Fort... and subject nations.


Probably a thick question, but how many points?

One per fort? One per area? When we played this on Saturday we could not find any reference to the numbers. The Nation Card says see the Rules and the Rules say nothing about numbers.


It's listed on the Roman reference card under round V scoring. Lots for York, Cheshire, Essex, etc.



Ah I see what you meant. I don't agree though.

The Nation Card has the 'holding' symbol at the top of that section, implying that those are scores obtained for holding the areas listed, regardless of fort presence, which further implies that Limes are additional. Yet no scores are given for Limes. hence my question.

If the ONLY roman scoring in Round V is Limes, i.e. that Romans only score points for areas that have an undestroyed Fort, that contradicts the main Holding rules as it is perfectly possible for them to hold areas that had forts destroyed earlier.

I also draw your attention to Page 6: "The Romans may score victory points in three additional ways. First, at the end of Round 5, they score points for limes (submitted nations and intact Roman forts)."

Note the word "additional" - Limes are additional to the normal scoring methods (such as holding an area at the end of a scoring round).

So what *are* the amounts used for the additional scores for Limes?

Maybe Dr Pulsipher is reading...
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Caleb and Doug are correct.

The rules were rewritten to a different format by FFG and that has introduced confusion in some places, unfortunately. It's impossible to change the format and rewrite parts without problems cropping up. Heck, you get problems just from production glitches even when nothing is rewritten (e.g., the board says Jutes play before Saxons: no, they play after, as in the list on page 20).

Some of these will be addressed soon on FFG's site, and on mine.

Lew Pulsipher
 
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Mark Ynys-Mon
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lewpuls wrote:
Caleb and Doug are correct.

The rules were rewritten to a different format by FFG and that has introduced confusion in some places, unfortunately. It's impossible to change the format and rewrite parts without problems cropping up. Heck, you get problems just from production glitches even when nothing is rewritten (e.g., the board says Jutes play before Saxons: no, they play after, as in the list on page 20).

Some of these will be addressed soon on FFG's site, and on mine.

Lew Pulsipher



Thanks for that. The rules need to clearly state this.

Seems rather inconsistent (not to say unfair) that the Romans themselves can hold areas at the end of a scoring round and not get points, yet if a subject tribe holds the same area then the Romans do get the points. What's the reasoning for that?


lewpuls wrote:


(e.g., the board says Jutes play before Saxons: no, they play after, as in the list on page 20).



Oh dear. Thanks for that too, I'll have to tape a correction onto the board.
 
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Stephen Braund
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Yes, Limes are an additional 'method', the points are not additional. The note on the card is intended to tell people how Round V is to be scored - as Limes, with these values.

I remember confusion many years ago with raids, were there additional points for raids? Obviously a misapprehension on my part.

Generally the Romans will have forts more or less everywhere by Round V, and these making it to the end of the turn will score the points, as well as areas where there is no fort, but friendly allies.
 
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David Williams
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mym-uk wrote:

Seems rather inconsistent (not to say unfair) that the Romans themselves can hold areas at the end of a scoring round and not get points, yet if a subject tribe holds the same area then the Romans do get the points. What's the reasoning for that?



Greets,

The general principle for Romans on R5 is that they score only for areas occupied by forts (AKA Limes).

Once again, the Romans are the exception to the rule. (Seeing that the Romans never whinge about other nations needing a 6 to kill their armies, I won't listen to any whingeing about this difference.)

Recall that the Romans build forts when they become the sole occupier of an area. If a nation submits to the Romans, then the Romans don't (usually) get the opportunity to become the sole occupier of areas occupied by the submitted nation, consequently they don't get to build forts in those areas.

As mentioned, Limes are generally only scored for areas that contain forts. However, it seemed unfair to deny the Roman player Limes points for areas that are occupied by submitted nations (had these nations not been able to submit, the Romans would have squished them and, there would have been forts there).

So, while the Romans score points for areas occupied by submitted nations in R5, this is not a confirmation that the general scoring principle that applies to other nations has been applied unfairly to the Romans, but rather an example of an exception to the exception that applies to the Romans' scoring at that time.

Not exactly clear, I agree, but that's what makes Britannia so intruiging! :-)

Regards,

chx
 
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Mark Ynys-Mon
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chux vomitus wrote:
Not exactly clear, I agree
chx


Actually, you were. I now see the rationale. Thanks :)
 
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Greg Todd
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Returning to the Bretwalda issue:

Quote:
but if one player is ahead isn't it possible for the others to band together to vote for the last-place player as Bretwalda rather than let the leader get further ahead?


I'm not sure why you would do this rather than just split the vote so that no-one got Bretwalda. Aside from associated deal-making,why would you vote to give any other player extra points, even if they are in last place?

 
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