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Subject: Crisis in gaming! Go is ranked below Settlers of Catan rss

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phil v
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Granted, it's the anniversary SoC, but still...

What in the aesthetic of the SoC set is so exceptional that it exceeds a free-standing, thick, table goban with shell and slate stones? I don't get it and I am hoping that Go players everywhere will rally our numbers to push Go up at least one notch in the rankings.

Thank you.
 
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Greg Gresik
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Go might have better mechanics, but lets face it - theme (even a paper thin one) and nice bits are part of the gaming experience as well. And with all due respect, this "let's rate game X even higher, so it beats game Y" is kinda silly. Here's a thought: everyone rank accurately according to the guidelines and let the rankings fall where they may.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Not the right place to note this- but since the new game pages came up I can't access the guidelines from them anymore...the little i is there in a blue circle but clicking on it doesn't do anything

Anyway, I'm sure Go can recover...
 
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Burke Glover
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Some reasons I prefer Settlers to Go:

1)Settlers lasts about an hour.

2)Settlers is playable with more than 2 players.

3)Settlers does not have an absurdly steep learning curve.

4)Players need not be of equal skill for everyone to have fun.

I could go on.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Well, you can say 1, 3 and 4 about Go.

1)It can last about an hour.

3)The learning curve isn't particularly steep, it is just incredibly long...

4) That is what the handicap system is for

And of course, Go has no luck, is playable by 2 players, and may be the richest game ever invented.


 
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J Boyes
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I love Go.

I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. While I think that pretty much anyone can enjoy settlers.
 
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Scott
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I don't mean to be rude but do ratings really matter that much? Chess is way, way down the list and I prefer it to both. I don't really put much stock in ratings, myself, especially after my disappointment with Puerto Rico and a couple of other higher ranked games.

 
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Philip Thomas
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We're geeks, we like numbers and chartsmeeple

Nah, who cares if Settlers has the same rating as Go to 3sf but beats it somewhere after that? Its not even settlers it is £300 settlers which has to increase the cost per play!
 
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Eddy Bee
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Go and Settlers are two completely different kinds of games.

One is a 2-player strategy game that requires dedicated study to play competently. The other is a multi-player social game that is extremely accessible to even the most casual of players. They're apples and oranges.

As a strategy game, Go is absolutely brilliant. As a casual social game, Settlers is absolutely brilliant.

I love Go - I've played since I was a teenager, read dozens of Go books, and competed at Go clubs, but if I'm with my gaming friends, I'd rather play Settlers.

If you take a group of 100 people and have them play both Go and Settlers, I'll bet more of them will enjoy their Settlers experience, and thus the reason for the BGG ratings. I know lots of people who were traumatized by their first Go experiences - there's no worse feeling than being soundly trounced and have no clue how or why or what to do to prevent it.

The BGG ratings are only a general indication of a game's merits. Instead of looking at the exact numerical position of a game, it's more useful just to see if a game is in the top 100 rather than the bottom 100. Ratings are subjective and are influenced by many uncontrollable factors.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yes, but the ratings table isn't determined by people taken off the street and forced to play board games, it is determined by us boardgamegeeks, a self-selecting group and one significantly more likely to be interested in Go than your average street loiterer.

Which is why Go is ranked above Settlers of Catan!

(Just a reminder follks, but it is £300 Settlers that is above GO, not £30 Settlers. Shows you geeks have money, hey! Actually the £300 Settlers players are of course inherently likely to like it, given they or a close friend of theirs has been prepared to spend £300 on it!!)

 
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Burke Glover
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Quote:
1) It can last about an hour.


Admittedly, I don't have much experience with Go. The games I've played, however, have lasted around two hours. I get the impression that it's pretty standard procedure to end the game well before it is played out, not something I'm fond of.

An anecdote. Last time I played Go, we played for about an hour, and then my opponent tells me, "I think you're supposed to concede now."
Me, flabbergasted: "What?"
Him: "Like, you can't win. You're supposed to concede."
Me: "I can't win? How do you know?"
Him: "Well, it's just... there's no way you can win with that position."
For all I can see, it's anyone's game, so we press on. An hour later, my opponent says, "See, I told you." I look at the mess on the board, and to me the outcome is a haze. At this point I keep playing, not because I don't believe him, but because I'm not seeing any outcome at all. And because I hate quitting.
A half hour later: "Ok, when is the game actually supposed to end?"
Him: "When we both agree that that it should end."
Me: "But I have no idea if I'm winning or losing!"
Him: "You're losing."
Me: GAAHHHH!!!

I get the impression that whoever taught my friend how to play Go just told him to concede at a certain point without really explaining why. And so it goes.

Quote:
3) The learning curve isn't particularly steep, it is just incredibly long...


Bah. Semantics. It doesn't matter if your metaphorical mountain is a thousand miles high, or a thousand miles long. Your metaphorical donkey is going to die before it carries you to the top, no matter how much metaphorical food and love you give it.
 
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Max
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This has likely been said many times before, but remember that the ratings here at BGG are not about which game is better, but which game people want to play the most. If most people here would rather play Settlers of Catan than Chess or Go, then Settlers gets a higher rating. So the rating indicates how often and much you want to play a game, not necessarily whether a game is better or worse. I think Chess and Go are great games, but I don't get too stressed about their ratings, I certainly wouldn't call it a "crisis", coz I realize most people here would rather play Euro games, and that's all the ratings really mean in this case. Cheers! -max
 
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...sure...
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You know what's worse!? Maharaja is ranked below Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation! What's that all about? And La Città is ranked below Puerto Rico! And.. and... and Chinatown is ranked below Carcassonne!!!

shake Please people, look at my ratings and rate accordingly. It's not that hard. You know I'm right!
 
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Philip Thomas
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I have played Go with my father, both of us having no clue, and we ended it in about an hour, I think.

I'll concede to using semantics on the steepness

And, Max, People want to play Go more than Settlers, they just want to play £300 Settlers even more. Makes sense in some ways.
 
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...sure...
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O, and another thing: SoC:3Dchestbox€300blabla is not even a game. It is Settlers. As is El Grande Decennial. It is El Grande. shake http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/12050 / http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/90425
 
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Philip Thomas
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Actually the £300 edition comes with the bits for Cities and Knights as well, so it isn't basic Settlers, it is Cities and Knights...which is odd cos C&K rates quite a bit lower than basic Settlers.
 
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Luca Iennaco
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For a long time, Settlers (the original one) was in the Top10 and Go wasn't.
So, that's nothing "new". And it's far from a "crisis", just some numbers...

Play whatever you like and have fun!
 
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Keith Anderson
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In 70 years, if people are still playing Settlers, then we can discuss it being as good as Monopoly
 
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Dave Dyer
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Eddy Bee wrote:
Go and Settlers are two completely different kinds of games.


Indeed. You might as well get upset because knitting is rated below
nascar racing.
 
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Dick Hunt
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maxmaven wrote:
This has likely been said many times before, but remember that the ratings here at BGG are not about which game is better, but which game people want to play the most. If most people here would rather play Settlers of Catan than Chess or Go, then Settlers gets a higher rating. So the rating indicates how often and much you want to play a game, not necessarily whether a game is better or worse. I think Chess and Go are great games, but I don't get too stressed about their ratings, I certainly wouldn't call it a "crisis", coz I realize most people here would rather play Euro games, and that's all the ratings really mean in this case. Cheers! -max


I totally agree with this, and I also agree with the person who implied that it's naughty to attempt to "correct" the rankings with some phony drumbeating campaign. Lots of my favorite games rank below games I'd never touch, but somehow I deal with such absurdities.

I think the biggest factor that puts Settlers above Go is sheer numbers. Settlers can entertain twice as many people as Go, which instantly doubles its potential constituency. Even if one of the four Settlers players disliked the game, Go's voters are still outnumbered.

I also believe that Theme is a huge factor here. The Settlers theme sounds boring (you're growing grain, herding sheep, etc), but one quickly finds oneself immersed in it before his first game is halfway done. But when a newbie looks at a Go board, all he sees are lines and stones--it's hard to even imagine that it's a game at all, and no amount of play makes a theme readily apparent--you're still just placing stones on a grid.
 
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Matthew Frederick
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
In 4000 years.. if people still play the Settlers of Catan.. maybe there can be an argument.. but until then.. GO is the superior game.

The lack of a decent challenger for 3,980 years of that doesn't make Go superior. The flint-tipped hunting spear was popular for many thousands of years, whereas gunpowder-based rifles have only been hot for a couple of hundred. If those rifles are replaced by energy blasters in 50 years, we've learned nothing about whether spears are superior to gunpowder rifles.

Length of popularity has nothing to do with wuperiority.
 
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Hunga Dunga
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ddyer wrote:
You might as well get upset because knitting is rated below
nascar racing.

Except of course, that it's the other way around.

Knitting ROCKS!!! Knowhaddamean, bro?
 
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J Boyes
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The real question is "Why is there a separate game entry for the fancy settlers?"
 
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Steve Hope
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Jpwoo wrote:
The real question is "Why is there a separate game entry for the fancy settlers?"


That IS the real question!

Go is the best pure game design ever. If you had only one opponent and one game you had to play for the rest of your life, you would be sensible to choose Go.

Ratings...Bah. Who cares? As someone says, comparing Go to Settlers is completely apples and oranges anyway.
 
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Luca Iennaco
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
mfrederick wrote:
JeremiahClayton wrote:
In 4000 years.. if people still play the Settlers of Catan.. maybe there can be an argument.. but until then.. GO is the superior game.

The lack of a decent challenger for 3,980 years of that doesn't make Go superior. The flint-tipped hunting spear was popular for many thousands of years, whereas gunpowder-based rifles have only been hot for a couple of hundred. If those rifles are replaced by energy blasters in 50 years, we've learned nothing about whether spears are superior to gunpowder rifles.

Length of popularity has nothing to do with wuperiority.


Do you honestly think it's only in the last 20 years that "skilled" GO players have existed? ...


I think that he was referring to other GAMES challenging Go, not players of Go challenging each other. Read his example: spears = Go (popular for many years because no better alternative was available), rifles = modern eurogames (like Settlers).
 
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