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Subject: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Contest Ready) rss

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Game entry for the 2013 Solitaire Print and Play Contest.

You are a young and ambitious architect, charged with constructing temples for five of the less-well-known deities in the pantheon. Be careful: gods are not known for their patience. You must complete all five temples before your inevitable sloth, greed, and general incompetence drive them to smite you and find a less charred replacement.

5 Temples is a deck-deconstruction and resource management game in which you are trying to gather the necessary supplies to build the titular 5 temples. Each card represent some resources which can be either bought, or sold. You can ignore a card if you are willing to annoy the gods. The gods' impatience with you is measured on the hubris track; when it runs out, you lose.

The game contains: a deck of 54 cards, a playmat, and the rules. You will need to provide 25 markers.

It takes about an hour to play a game.

There is an optional "Short Game" which should take less than half an hour.



Downloads:

- Rules
- Cards
- Playmat
- Reference Cards
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Credit where credit is due.

This game obviously owes a debt to Foothold Enterprises by E. Nate Kurth. In particular, firpo's suggestion that randomness be generated on a single card, because it made me want to use deck-building to affect the distribution, and therefore the expected prices of goods. Removing high-cost cards will lower the expected price of everything; removing low-cost cards raises prices. (Of course, using an accumulation of costs and a number of cards drawn also affects the speed of deck cycling, while allowing only a random selection of cards to come up each pass through the deck.) Bolt on a resource market and some special powers, and that's basically 5 Temples.

Also:
The icons are all from www.game-icons.net. I didn't do anything to pretty them up,
The cards were made using nanDeck.
Names were generated by two random name generators (one and two)
The god's sobriquets were adapted from a weird name generator
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Edit: Q & A added.

Q: What does the ? in the middle of the hubrus track represent?

A: It stands for "any resource". In particular, you lose one resource of your choice.

Q: There are only four cards in the deck remaining. I draw the top card and want to buy the two Dye available on that card. I need to draw five total cards, but there are only three in the draw deck and none in discard. I draw the three cards. According to the rules, "If you need to draw a card and the discard pile is empty, gain a hubris for each card you are unable to draw, then proceed."

What happens?

A: You gain the two hubris, then buy the Dye for the price shown on the three cards, then continue on. You will of course immediately gain another hubris for reshuffling the deck.

Q: If I am reading the rules correctly, I don't actually have to own the resources to sell them.

A: Correct.

Q: Also, when you lose a worshiper that reduce the price of something, does that mean that that you have to adjust the price higher?

A: No.

Q: I assume, when gaining more than one hubris, all penalties along the way apply.

A: Correct.

Q: [Do] penalties apply that are passed/ landed on while moving backward on the hubris track[?]

A: No, although penalties can apply more than once if you move forward onto them a second time.

Q: The card for Efar Zotar forces me to lose one resource of the one I have least of when I reshuffle. If I have 1 gold and one stone which one do I lose? Do I choose?

A: You choose which resource to use.

Q: For Ana I have to choose which temple I will build. Does that mean that I choose a temple and must build it before any other temples? Can I choose Ana's temple?

A: Yes. Normally you choose which temple to build when taking the build a temple action. With Ana, you choose the first temple you will build at the start of the game, and you cannot build a different one, even if you have the appropriate resources. When you build a temple, you must immediately choose the next temple you will build, etc. You can choose Ana's temple, after which this requirement goes away.

Q: I have 1 free resource and a card lets me buy 3. What do I do? I guess I pay, but get only 1 because there's no more storage for the rest. Is this correct?


A: Mostly. You pay for three. You can choose to only get one. You can also "make room" in storage by discarding markers for other types of resource and using them as the purchased resource. (Section 2.2.3 in the rules.)

So if you buy 3 wood, but only have 1 free resource, you could: take one wood, or discard 2 stone (or cloth, etc. or 1 stone and 1 cloth, etc.) and take all three wood, or discard one other resource and take two wood. You pay for all three wood regardless of your choice.




State of the game.

The files above describe a playable game. There are some fronts that are known to need work.

-The rules need some work. The two appendices need to be finished. I would like to add play examples for buying and selling resources. Any other errors, inconsistencies, or confusing wordings that are spotted will need to be fixed.

Edit: Appendices are in, although it is just a card dump at this point.

-Early playtests suggest the game might be too mechanical. Decisions are a little too obvious, and the market is a little too predictable.

One thing to try is to change the game so that reshuffling has an effect other than just gaining a hubris. For example, they could draw a card like:

 


The disadvantages of this approach are that 1) it's another deck of cards to manage, and 2) it adds a pause to deal with complexity when reshuffling.

A small deck of adjustments would reduce the number of extra components, but would make changes more predictable. A look-up table is low space and (potentially) high variance, but has more action overhead when playing.

It isn't clear, either, how much an occasional random price shift will affect things.


Edit: All later comments have suggested that keeping complexity down is a preferred goal. As such, the short game mode is in, and price adjustments are out.

Also, on a personal note, the semester is starting for me, so I won't have as much time as I'd like to make and test changes. (Edit: This one's still true.)
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Krikkit wrote:
Credit where credit is due.

This game obviously owes a debt to Foothold Enterprises by E. Nate Kurth.


...BARELY. You've taken the idea to whole new level. A whole new PLANET. This is really cool!
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
After reading through the rules I instantly thought of slapping an Egyptian or Roman theme on this...
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Griffin Patterson
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
This is a really interesting game! I look forward to following it's progression and, given the simplicity of components, might hazard a print of it in a week or so.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
I played several games of 5 Temples, but finished none so far. Still managed to build couple of temples
It is really interesting game, with heavy brain usage trying to figure out the best way to build the temple, and this is something that I really like.
The only thing that worries me is heavy book keeping. In all games I played I caught myself forgetting to move this or that counter or forgetting to apply this or that god/worshiper power. Then I realize that I can not track the thing back, that what I achieved was actually done by cheating, and that the only way to feel satisfied after building a temple is to start the game from beginning...
And then there are new gods with new powers to remember, new followers not to forget, and constant worry not to mess up market prices....

Considering that I usually play at night, after 10 hours in the office (automotive industry anyone?) and then 4-5 hours of jumping around with my kids, I maybe tend to forget such things more then average human being, but still I think it will take some time until I get into routine and until I can play this game feeling safe that I will not forget anything.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
saranac wrote:

The only thing that worries me is heavy book keeping. In all games I played I caught myself forgetting to move this or that counter or forgetting to apply this or that god/worshiper power.


Thank you for trying the game.

Would it help to have reminder cards/cheat-sheets? They'd be fairly easy to make for the base rules at least.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
All the possible help would be welcome
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Reference cards are up.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
MvRichthofen wrote:
After reading through the rules I instantly thought of slapping an Egyptian or Roman theme on this...


I think that would be neat. I hesitated to use "real" gods because I don't know the mythology well enough to do it justice.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Krikkit wrote:
MvRichthofen wrote:
After reading through the rules I instantly thought of slapping an Egyptian or Roman theme on this...


I think that would be neat. I hesitated to use "real" gods because I don't know the mythology well enough to do it justice.


There are several websites that list all the Egyptian gods, godesses and what there purpose was. I think there even an entire Wiki page on them if you goggle it.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
the Old D&D Deities Manual had a great list of them too.

i will print up everything tomorrow and give it a play
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
MvRichthofen wrote:
Krikkit wrote:
MvRichthofen wrote:
After reading through the rules I instantly thought of slapping an Egyptian or Roman theme on this...


I think that would be neat. I hesitated to use "real" gods because I don't know the mythology well enough to do it justice.


There are several websites that list all the Egyptian gods, godesses and what there purpose was. I think there even an entire Wiki page on them if you goggle it.


I suppose it depends. I could easily re-skin the game by changing the names and portfolios of the gods. But if I were using the Egyptian (or D&D) pantheon I'd want to also gear the power and statistics to the personality of the god. (And for some, I don't know what I'd do. I mean, Aapep want to devour the sun; is he going to get impatient about the amount of cloth it takes to build his temple?) With made-up gods, I can assign values as I see fit and give them all the personalities of petty fussbudgets.

This is mostly a personal stumbling block, I suspect. Certainly, I don't mean to dissuade you from slapping an Egyptian them on. I'm just explaining (and working out for myself) why I didn't,
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
just finished reading the rules

i would offer two pieces of advice:
make sure your diagram numbers read left to right
for the god section i might put the god power below the icons just to separate it some

the rules seem easy enough and you have some interesting obstacles that players need to overcome
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
I also thought the rules read quite nicely, were well thought out and layed out intelegably. The only change that I would personally make would be to display the entire card with "index" numbers around it for each section and sub-section of the card with corresponding descrpitions that all fit within the same illustration field. This may require a smaller font size to fit the descriptions all in one illustration though. Also I would likely color code each section (i.e. the god section of the card would be red and all the description balloons for the sub-sections of the God section would also be red, etc.)
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
dumarest123 wrote:
just finished reading the rules

i would offer two pieces of advice:
make sure your diagram numbers read left to right
for the god section i might put the god power below the icons just to separate it some

the rules seem easy enough and you have some interesting obstacles that players need to overcome


I've moved the gods' powers below the icons.

I still need to update the rulebook. Diagram changes will probably be postponed until then.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Hey, Bill. I played 1.5 games of this one. Unfortunately, it didn’t grab me. Sorry! I had read the rules, and everything sounded good. I had high hopes for it. I played not-quite-half a game to learn the flow and see if I had any problems with specific rules. After about half an hour, I still hadn’t completed a single Temple, and I realized that I was overlooking/missing many rules and stats adjustments.

Anyway, I played again. Took my time. Pretty sure I got all of the rules correct. Pretty sure I didn’t miss any of the bookkeeping. I began the game with these Gods: Zouka, Balmar, Migorn, Efar Zotar, Casdon. When the Hubris track reached its end, only Casdon was without a Temple.

Not bad. I had an okay time. And there was a challenge to the game. But here my are thoughts for you:

Pluses
• The game works. While that is a lame comment, I feel it’s an important one. The game makes sense while playing. There is a progression to the game. And you can see the endpoint coming.
• The rules, while a bit sterile (with its section titles 2.2.1, etc.), are well organized, and even after one reading, I felt like I had a solid handle on how to play the game. Some minor tweaks can be made as others have pointed out.
• Cards having multiple uses and adding randomness are well done. There is a lot of info on the cards, but the icons are simple and clear, and the various powers all made sense.
• I liked the progression to the endgame and having the tension & difficulty increase the closer you get to that point.

Minuses
• The game was too long for my preferences. My complete game took a solid hour to play, and I was kind of rushing a bit toward the end to keep it that way. For a game like this, where you’re basically repeating the same steps and achieving the same tasks over and over again, I’d like to see it more around 45 minutes or less.
The first sentence of your description of the game says “5 Temples is a deck-construction and resource management game…” Unless I missed something, there is no deck construction in this game. Maybe I just have a different definition of the genre. To me deck-construction is like The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game, where you take a whole bunch of cards and create a deck using a certain number of them to play the game. Here, you’ve got 54 cards and use all 54 cards. Not a big deal to me as I actually dislike deck-construction, but someone may be looking for it based on the description.
• There is a lot of bookkeeping/upkeep. Like Sentinels of the Multiverse level of bookkeeping/upkeep. In fact, I really wanted to grab all of the special tokens/markers from that game and see if I could use them here to help my 42-year-old brain. Especially in the first half of the game, you’ll have four or five Gods all with powers that break the rules, plus you may have two or three worshipers, also, all with powers that break the rules. So you may have eight different powers to examine on every single turn, plus following the actual rules of play. It’s a lot is all I’m saying. Not sure how you would change this unless you just scaled the entire game down – reduce the number of Temples, resources, cards. That’s probably not what you want at this point.

Well, that’s probably enough from me. I’ve got some minor things that are similar to other comments already posted, so I won’t add on to them.

Again, overall, I think there is a lot to like here with the basic gameplay, the multi-use cards, and the progression of difficulty. There are just other things that take away from the fun factor for me. I will still be following along to see what others have to say and see where you take the game from here, Bill. Good luck with it!!

Mo

Edit: because I'm an idiot. modest
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
mo7189 wrote:
• The first sentence of your description of the game says “5 Temples is a deck-construction and resource management game…” Unless I missed something, there is no deck construction in this game. Maybe I just have a different definition of the genre. To me deck-construction is like The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game, where you take a whole bunch of cards and create a deck using a certain number of them to play the game. Here, you’ve got 54 cards and use all 54 cards. Not a big deal to me as I actually dislike deck-construction, but someone may be looking for it based on the description.


The description says deck-deconstruction, which makes sense, since the deck becomes smaller as you build more temples or whenever you sell resources.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
AKRepublic wrote:
Just a quick question. What does the ? in the middle of the hubrus track represent?


It stands for "any resource". In particular, you lose one resource of your choice.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Oh, and thank you Andy and Mo for playing 5 Temples, and for giving feedback.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
PSchulman wrote:
The description says deck-deconstruction, which makes sense, since the deck becomes smaller as you build more temples or whenever you sell resources.

Wow, I read it like three times and saw deck-construction every time.

My bad.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
PSchulman wrote:
mo7189 wrote:
• The first sentence of your description of the game says “5 Temples is a deck-construction and resource management game…” Unless I missed something, there is no deck construction in this game. Maybe I just have a different definition of the genre. To me deck-construction is like The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game, where you take a whole bunch of cards and create a deck using a certain number of them to play the game. Here, you’ve got 54 cards and use all 54 cards. Not a big deal to me as I actually dislike deck-construction, but someone may be looking for it based on the description.


The description says deck-deconstruction, which makes sense, since the deck becomes smaller as you build more temples or whenever you sell resources.


Exactly. The intention is that the decision about buying/selling/ignoring a card needs to be informed by what cards you want to leave in your deck as well as your immediate needs (cash or resources). This affects both what cards are available after a reshuffle and what the expected prices of goods are, since the cost is summed from cards drawn from the deck.

I worry that in practice these effects are too subtle, and don't affect gameplay as much as I would like. I find that how many cards are left, and to a lesser extent which ones, is worth considering, especially towards the end of a game. But money is easy enough to get that deck pricing effects don't really enter into the picture; or at least, I don't notice them when I play.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
mo7189 wrote:

• The game was too long for my preferences. My complete game took a solid hour to play, and I was kind of rushing a bit toward the end to keep it that way. For a game like this, where you’re basically repeating the same steps and achieving the same tasks over and over again, I’d like to see it more around 45 minutes or less.
• There is a lot of bookkeeping/upkeep. Like Sentinels of the Multiverse level of bookkeeping/upkeep. In fact, I really wanted to grab all of the special tokens/markers from that game and see if I could use them here to help my 42-year-old brain. Especially in the first half of the game, you’ll have four or five Gods all with powers that break the rules, plus you may have two or three worshipers, also, all with powers that break the rules. So you may have eight different powers to examine on every single turn, plus following the actual rules of play. It’s a lot is all I’m saying. Not sure how you would change this unless you just scaled the entire game down – reduce the number of Temples, resources, cards. That’s probably not what you want at this point.


I agree that the game is a little long and has a lot of bookkeeping. For me, it's still in the tolerable range for both. But it would be nice for the game to be quicker and more streamlined.

As an experiment, I'm tacking on two alternate game mode (last section of updated rules). So now you can play the game three ways!

Regular Mode This is the same game as before.

Introductory Mode This is identical to regular mode, except you ignore all special power text, on both gods and worshipers. This tends to make the game slightly easier to beat, and reduces the amount of overhead you need to keep track of each turn. Once you are familiar with the game flow, you can switch to regular mode for additional challenge.

The introductory game hearkens back to private play-testing versions and is mainly intended to allow people to learn the basics without getting drowned in detail.

Short Game This is a shorter game. Use only the 36 cards marked with an asterisk in the upper right corner. (The cards have been updated to add asterisks.) You only need to build 3 temples instead of 5. The remaining rules are the same.

The short game is highly experimental. I played it twice so far and lost both, although one was close. I sold all my cloth in the other, and could not complete the third temple. Both games took ~25 minutes. Although the game played faster, the complexity/bookkeeping overhead was every bit as high as in the regular game. I feel like the reduced deck increased the role of luck, but that may just be sour grapes.
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Re: [WIP] 5 Temples -- 2013 Solitaire Print & Play Contest (Components Ready)
Krikkit wrote:
I agree that the game is a little long and has a lot of bookkeeping. For me, it's still in the tolerable range for both. But it would be nice for the game to be quicker and more streamlined.

As an experiment, I'm tacking on two alternate game mode (last section of updated rules). So now you can play the game three ways!

Regular Mode This is the same game as before.

Introductory Mode This is identical to regular mode, except you ignore all special power text, on both gods and worshipers. This tends to make the game slightly easier to beat, and reduces the amount of overhead you need to keep track of each turn. Once you are familiar with the game flow, you can switch to regular mode for additional challenge.

The introductory game hearkens back to private play-testing versions and is mainly intended to allow people to learn the basics without getting drowned in detail.

Short Game This is a shorter game. Use only the 36 cards marked with an asterisk in the upper right corner. (The cards have been updated to add asterisks.) You only need to build 3 temples instead of 5. The remaining rules are the same.

The short game is highly experimental. I played it twice so far and lost both, although one was close. I sold all my cloth in the other, and could not complete the third temple. Both games took ~25 minutes. Although the game played faster, the complexity/bookkeeping overhead was every bit as high as in the regular game. I feel like the reduced deck increased the role of luck, but that may just be sour grapes.

Wow, Bill! This is very cool of you. thumbsup

I feel like I should give the Short Game a try. It sounds interesting. Yes, luck may end up being more of a factor; you may be right. I'll have to take a look at the specific cards involved. I assume you picked them specifically to, perhaps, have some sort of synergy? Or the most variety of Powers? I probably won't get to it until the weekend, but when I give it a go, I'll let you know.

Mo
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