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Dungeoneer: Tomb of the Lich Lord» Forums » Rules

Subject: Are Dungeoneer's rules too broken to buy this game? rss

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the king
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Let me start by saying that I have been looking to buy my first card based game for a while now, and Tomb of the Lich Lord comes the closest to what I want. I really like the general idea. There are a few versions of the rules out there which make it confusing even to start with. I after skimming all of them, I decided that the best way to learn the game was to read the Beginner's guide first, then the 2.1 rules, followed by the new 2.2 rules. I do still have some questions after reading all three, but I still want the game after reading all the rules. But I have also heard that there are some problems with the cards themselves. That the cards further complicate the rules and make them even more unclear. So I ask you, is the 3rd ed Atlas reprint of this game worth buying?
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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I don't think so. I found that with a bit of experience it fell out pretty well, and that while organized badly and occasionally confusing the rules are comprehensive and non-contradictory.

 
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Ronster Zero
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I'll have to agree the with monkey.

Although there can be times where you need to do some rules management, the game itself is well done. I have never played a game where we could not figure out a rules issue. I like the game and for a short dungeon romp, its fun!
 
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Steve Noneyobusiness
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I thought I'd like Dungeoneer. I really WANTED to like Dungeoneer, but after many tries, I gave up on it and sold my decks.

A lot of people complain about how the rules are written, but I think the real problem are the rules themselves. I had read the instructions many times before I played my first game, and I was still constantly forgetting to do this or that.

There was just too much for me to keep track of, in addition to the rules not being very intuitive (for someone like me who has played many fantasy games). In addition, the game is balanced very poorly.

I played the game several times, both solo and with friends (none of whom were familiar with the game), and I even tried to make modifications to make it easier. In the end, it was just too much work for what is such a "simple" and heavily random game.

Perhaps it is better if you have someone to play with who already knows how to play...

My final assessment? A lot of great ideas wasted on an otherwise bad game.
 
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John Farrell
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I borrowed a copy, tried to understand the rules, including personal communication with the designer, and eventually gave up and bought Runebound 2e instead. Dungeoneer has some great things going for it, but there are other great games which you can enjoy with much less effort.
 
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Jeff
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MrSkeletor wrote:
Where can the "best" version of the rules be found?


The Official 2.1 rules can be found at the Atlas Games site:
http://www.atlas-games.com/dungeoneer/index.php

...along with the 2.2 rules which are kinda hidden on the right hand column above the 2.1 rules. Here is the link directly to the 2.2 rules:
http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/Dun2-2rulesUNRELEASED...

The 2.2 version is basically the "beta" version of the upcoming official rules that likely will be released with the Call of the Lich Lord epic expansion.

Here is the link to the designer's forum where he takes the time to interact with players on a nearly daily basis by answering questions and addressing comments about the game. By the way, those 2.2 rules are open for comments...
http://studiodenmark.com/forums/index.php

And for what its worth, I like the game enough to have bought all the expansions so far and am looking forward to the epic level expansion. But that's just my two cents.

Regards.

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the king
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can you explain what the epic level expansion actually is?
 
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Steve Bernhardt
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I was underwhelmed by Dungeoneer. Some good ideas, but it fell flat mostly because too much of the game is getting lucky with room card draws. The rules were pretty darn bad also.
 
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Dave Edge
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I played Tomb for the first time this weekend. Everyone was rapidly hooked. The rules are well known as a bit of a nightmare, but we worked through them in an open hand session. Didn't take more than 2 turns until players were confident enough to carry on with closed hands.
If you come across strange events that aren't immediately resolvable by the rules, use your common sense and make a ruling as a group. Worked absolutely fine for us. Played it Saturday, bought it Sunday. Got it today.
 
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Silverdragon
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This game is excellent. Just grunt and work your way through the rules. It took us about 4 hours the first round to really get clear about the mechanics. In addition, we used the faq sections. It was well worth the effort. The game is NOT broken. I am not even sure why the rules are so difficult to get through, because the game is actually rather simple to learn. It is a fantastic, short dungeoncrawl with some nice features that make it a blend of Runebound lite, magic, and Descent, but playable in a more reasonable amount of time. We build our dungeon first to even out the game and remove THAT luck factor. It makes the game play very smoothly and everyone starts off on even footing. Good Luck
 
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Sven
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I haven´t played Dungeoneer for quite some time but I really can´t understand why people have such problems with the rules.
I gave it as a birthdaypresent to a friend. We decided to try the game immediatly at and were playing within less than an hour. The presenstation of the rules is not so good, I´ll admit that. But anybody with some gaming experience under his belt should easily understand the rules. For beginners the rules might actually be a bit tough.
On the other hand I have to admit that there are no rules-lawyers in my group and that we are not overly competitive. We are quite content to just understand the principles of the rules before we start our first play and we are happy to make ad hoc interpretations that are in the "spirit" of the rules. If you are a nail-hard rules-lawyer who want´s to understand all details of the game beforehand I can see that you will not be happy with Dungeoneer.
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Justin Borges
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During our first play, yeah, we had questions and came into some problems. But there weren't any more problems than you'd have with any game that's more complex than Connect Four. Especially for card games where there is so much info on one card, it happens.

But the game is DEFINITELY worth at least a couple tries. Great artwork and some great mechanics.
It's an awesome filler game, at the least, with a great theme. If you're looking for something like Descent, just go with Descent. If you want a game where you and some others can travel a dungeon, screwing each other with their own Peril points, play it, for sure.
 
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Wilhelm Fitzpatrick
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I personally also really like the game, and have had many good reactions from the people I have introduced it to. We always play with the optional prebuilt map rules, which is the way that the designer recommends to play it also.
 
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Ava Jarvis
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I rather like Dungeoneer, and don't view it as "too broken" (or, to tell the truth,
broken at all). It's a filler adventure game, and works very well as that, and I don't know of many other adventure games that can claim to be filler, nor that can claim to be as portable. Mind you, if you play with multiple expansions at the same time, the game will stretch out.

I haven't run into any cards that are difficult to interpret. Weird situations that come up can either be resolved by common sense or by asking on the Dungeoneer boards at http://www.dungeoneer.net .

For people who want to RPG in their spare time and loved the dungeon delving and are not looking for a, ha, gamer's game, will probably like Dungeoneer.

If you get Tomb and don't like it, at least you won't have spent large amounts of cash (whereas if you get one of the bigger adventure games and don't like it, you are hurting rather more in the pocket area). It's a very affordable adventure game.
 
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Zom Bee
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brokenasintended wrote:
I thought I'd like Dungeoneer. I really WANTED to like Dungeoneer...

I played the game several times, both solo and with friends (none of whom were familiar with the game), and I even tried to make modifications to make it easier. In the end, it was just too much work for what is such a "simple" and heavily random game.


I think I am in the camp with you.

I pre-bought many of the expansions expecting to like it, and I have tried, but everytime I setup I just lose interest in playing it out. It just seems too fiddly for what should be a simpler-to-manage game. VonCougar and I played recently and we both had extremely different opinions afterwards.

I'm still going to give it a few more plays, because I WANT it to work. I think the mechanic of spending your opponents peril to play DM cards against them is a great and original idea. I just think it's the cards themselves may be the problem...it's like the designers tried to be prolific with the cards (for theme I imagine) when perhaps they should have first tried to be more "fun" or "challenging"...OR maybe I'm searching for a euro-game where there is only an american theme-game.
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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The rules are not presented well. It helps to have the cards to hand to look at while going over the rules. It also allows you to do some sample testing of the rules as you read. But like many games, the best way to learn the rules is to play a few times. Games like this are trying to do a lot of different things, and not all the rules are going to be intuitive.

I've found the game (only have and played Tomb) to be fun, but not very challenging. I've only played with 2 players, so maybe 3-4 would change things, but it plays too quickly for me and my wife. It's very similar to other fantasy adventure games (move get challenge, find treasure, complete quests, etc.), but we prefer longer games. Once you get the rules down, you can finish a game of Dungeoneer in about 30 minutes. arrrh
 
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the king
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thanks guys, I ordered the game last night, I am looking forward to playing. Where is the game's faq sheet?
 
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Silverdragon
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http://studiodenmark.com/forums/

This is the game designer's website. There is a lot of information there. Also, if you are into yahoo groups, the people on that site are fairly quick about answering questions. There is also a large database of faq.

Happy gaming
 
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Zom Bee
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drakken wrote:
thanks guys, I ordered the game last night, I am looking forward to playing. Where is the game's faq sheet?


The official site is here:
http://www.atlas-games.com/dungeoneer/index.php

There is a quickstart and a FAQ on that right-side menu in the LINKS section
 
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Jason
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drakken wrote:
Let me start by saying that I have been looking to buy my first card based game for a while now, and Tomb of the Lich Lord comes the closest to what I want. I really like the general idea. There are a few versions of the rules out there which make it confusing even to start with. I after skimming all of them, I decided that the best way to learn the game was to read the Beginner's guide first, then the 2.1 rules, followed by the new 2.2 rules. I do still have some questions after reading all three, but I still want the game after reading all the rules. But I have also heard that there are some problems with the cards themselves. That the cards further complicate the rules and make them even more unclear. So I ask you, is the 3rd ed Atlas reprint of this game worth buying?


With the way the rules are so poorly written, I am about to throw in the towel on this one. I still cannot get a straight answer as to how the counter attack symbol is used

And by this I mean EXAMPLES. The funny thing is I have been told 3 different answers

The quick start and the FAQ does nothing to clear up combat
 
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Jordan Richer
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I think its just an effect that only takes place when you are the "defending" monster/hero, not the "attacker," and only when you're making that type of attack.

When a monster's melee attack is in the diamond, it can only defend with that attack, never initiate the attack.

I've only played with this game once, I really liked it, I picked up the rules pretty fast, and never had any confusion about the rules.

Oh well, hope I could help.
 
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Daniel Corban
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I just received Dungeoneer in a trade. It's the original 2nd edition with "2.0" rules. I sat down at the table, read through the rules and did two rounds of a pretend two-player game. It did seem akward at first, but now I am confident that I have the rules down pat and could easily teach/play it.
 
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I'm one of those who *wants* to like the game, but I keep bumping into rules issues that drag the enjoyment down.

We don't play all that often, so every game requires constant reference to the rules. We just played a game today that had me dumping a card from my hand because I just couldn't figure out how to play it. And every quest has its own system that requires being looked up each and every time. What a headache!

It's a shame because I enjoy the theme and the general idea, but it seems like the designer really bit off more than he could chew as far as design goals go.

Brian
 
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Daniel Corban
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That must be a symptom of the expansions, because I have yet to see a confusing quest from Tomb of the Lich Lord.
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Michael M
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I have Dungeoneer and some expansions and I really wanted to like the game. I don't think the rules are badly written but somehow even though the ideas are good the game falls flat. It's a good (OK really) game but you will not say "Wow!".

You should try Anima:The Shadow of Omega instead. It really is a good game! It has a good flow, and I at least feel that the rules are much better. And with the expansion coming out soon, I think it will be even more fun!
 
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