Daniel Loke
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Having just gone 10 distance with only one Cylon (sorry Gridash!), I'm still not satisfied with the Loyalty deck mechanic introduced in Exodus.

Adding a bunch of end-game conditions that reduce resources and give damage and such helps, but doesn't solve the dilution of human turns problem.

The main problem with the Pegasus execution mechanic was that you can use executions to determine Loyalty, thus being good for humans in the long run. The main problem with the Exodus+ mechanic is that there is the non-trivial probability of one fewer Cylon.

So what I want to do is make executions bad for humans, as they should be. What I propose is this:

There is NO extra Loyalty card. Upon execution, you may choose to reveal a single "You are a Cylon" card or ONE of your "You are NOT a Cylon" cards.

You must choose a Final Five if you have one.

(assume no Personal Goals)

All other effects are the same -- the executed player must discard all of his cards and titles (and miracle tokens, if applicable) and choose a new character.

Pre-sleeper is the same: upon human execution, reveal loyalty, shuffle one more "You are Not a Cylon" into the Loyalty deck, and draw again.

Post-sleeper, however, is a different story. All Loyalty cards should be dealt, which guarantees two Cylons (or one Cylon holding both cards).

Now, an executed Cylon player can reveal his "You are Not a Cylon" card and suffer all of the effects of execution, but not reveal his final Loyalty. This prevents the Pegasus problem of executing suspicious people without a care.

The main problem is how to deal with a soft-revealed problem. The easiest solution is for the group to agree that he is a soft-revealed Cylon and therefore he gets the regular execution rules applied to him. This is known as the "Don't be a dick" solution.

However, if there ARE dicks in your playgroup, or if there is no consensus, there are a couple of solutions I can think of.

1) The President and Admiral publicly vote on whether or not he is soft-revealed. If tied, include the CAG (or current player if no CAG). If the executed player holds a title, the highest in the line of succession votes instead.

2) All other human players secretly vote, not just the title holders. Ties go in favour of the executed player as it means that at least one human player is not sure, and therefore consensus is not reached.

I personally favour (2).

I do think it's a bit of an elegant solution and it encourages more subterfuge but perhaps there is a glaring problem that I've missed. I'd be happy to hear what you think of it.
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Mindy G
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I'm not following. How does this get the final card dealt?
 
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Daniel Loke
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oriecat wrote:
I'm not following. How does this get the final card dealt?
Whoops, I forgot the most important part. Read the bolded part again, sorry!
 
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Joshian Grr
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But if an unrevealed Cylon reveals "all" of his You Are Not A Cylon cards, then everyone knows that his remaining card is You Are A Cylon.

I don't get it.
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Daniel Loke
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jozxyqk wrote:
But if an unrevealed Cylon reveals "all" of his You Are Not A Cylon cards, then everyone knows that his remaining card is You Are A Cylon.

I don't get it.
Everyone else still has two loyalties, though. in a 5 player game, there would still be 9 "unknown" loyalties, of which he only has one.

See below!
 
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Daniel Loke
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Oh I see what you mean. OK, I'll change it to "ONE" of his YANAC cards.
 
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I'm still not following. If a player post-sleeper is executed and reveals all of his loyalty cards to be "You are not a Cylon", everyone knows he's human for the rest of the game.

edit - ninja'ed
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Daniel Loke
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Yup, I just changed it as per above. Thanks!
 
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Mindy G
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I don't think I get it either.

Here's a thought I had:
Pre-Sleeper as normal.
After sleeper, the next revealed cylon, if there is one, chooses someone to draw the last card (without looking at it). If they reveal after sleeper, they do it at that time.

Or what about instead of Sleeper, there's a Nap Phase at 6 distance and current player has to draw it, so that makes it risky to jump the fleet on your turn.
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Mindy G
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Ok changed version is better, but then you could be costing the humans morale for killing cylons, which isn't fair.
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Daniel Loke
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oriecat wrote:
Ok changed version is better, but then you could be costing the humans morale for killing cylons, which isn't fair.
For a soft-revealed Cylon we would use regular execution rules, which wouldn't cost morale.

For other cases, we could add a clause to restore any morale lost to any previous executions when he proves Cylon.
 
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oriecat wrote:
Ok changed version is better, but then you could be costing the humans morale for killing cylons, which isn't fair.
Yeah, I like this quite a lot with that exception. When cylons are executed, they should be forced to reveal (one of) their cylon loyalty cards and die like normal. Letting them live as a new character makes no sense, and makes cylons far too hard to kill.
 
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Hendrik R
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How about an additional condition like When the executed character is in the Brig, she reveals ALL her Loyalty cards. That effectively means that normal execution rules are applied to people in the Brig. So it's a bit harder to kill soft-revealed Cylons, but you can still make it a sure thing.
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Soft revealing is certainly not being a dick. If I had these rules and someone executed me, I would reveal one YANAC card as you say and keep my Cylon card hidden.

having some sort of consensus that they are a cylon and must reveal that, is just bad. What if someone actually convinces everyone someone is a cylon and you all agree he has to reveal his cylon card but doesn't have one?

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Kamakaze wrote:
Soft revealing is certainly not being a dick. If I had these rules and someone executed me, I would reveal one YANAC card as you say and keep my Cylon card hidden.

having some sort of consensus that they are a cylon and must reveal that, is just bad. What if someone actually convinces everyone someone is a cylon and you all agree he has to reveal his cylon card but doesn't have one?
Oh yes, I have been in games where everybody was convinced that a particular player was a Cylon, but he turned out to be human anyway.

If you have a rule that says that an executed player has to reveal only one loyalty card and gets to choose which, then you shouldn't include vague exceptions like "if the other players vote that he should reveal all of them, he must do that". I like the "Brig" solution here.

However, the problem with your new execution rules is that deliberate execution becomes senseless. You cannot do it anymore to get rid of a Cylon. Though Cylons can do it to make the humans lose Morale (but thereby soft-revealing themselves, because humans have no reason to execute anymore). Cally's OPG becomes practically worthless, unless she is a Cylon.

Frankly, I do not like the whole Exodus loyalty mechanism, and it seems that the designers agree with me, as they removed it explicitly from Daybreak. My take is: if your group tends to "abuse" executions to divulge loyalty (which I think is not smart, but it has been seen as problematic), then simply do not place the Pegasus on the table. Or just house-rule that the Airlock is an unusable location.

Personally, I think it would have been better if they had never introduced executions in the game (because role-playing is a big part of the game, and it's irritating when a character you have enjoyed playing suddenly is killed off), but it sometimes leads to tense situations with certain crises, which is nice. You could remove all these crises, and the Airlock, and splatter tokens, and Cally and Dee from the game and do without executions at all, but that is too invasive a procedure for my tastes.
 
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You had me until the 'don't be a dick' clauses. Any game that needs 'don't be a dick' to function is broken

Furunkel wrote:
How about an additional condition like When the executed character is in the Brig, she reveals ALL her Loyalty cards. That effectively means that normal execution rules are applied to people in the Brig. So it's a bit harder to kill soft-revealed Cylons, but you can still make it a sure thing.
Furunkel's suggestion fixes it nicely though.

I generally prefer to stick soft-revealed cylons in the Brig than execute them anyway.
 
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You can remove the need for a "don't be a dick" clause by requiring executed cylons to reveal their cylon loyalty. unless there is something else I'm missing somehow.
 
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Yeah, I'm also unsure what the problem is, when the proposed solution is to make executions bad for humans (they already are, -1 Morale for executing a human).

If the problem is the extra undealt loyalty card (as per Exodus rules), a real, workable solution from another thread:

Make the Human Fleet Cylon location include one more action:
or
Action: If there is only one Loyalty card in the Loyalty deck, select a human player to draw it.

(If the problem is that a hidden Cylon executes Human players, then well, that's life and the humans have to do the same, preferably before the cylon does it.)
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a1bert wrote:

If the problem is the extra undealt loyalty card (as per Exodus rules), a real, workable solution from another thread:

Make the Human Fleet Cylon location include one more action:
or
Action: If there is only one Loyalty card in the Loyalty deck, select a human player to draw it.

(If the problem is that a hidden Cylon executes Human players, then well, that's life and the humans have to do the same, preferably before the cylon does it.)
I like it! Could you link to the original thread?
 
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It's in the Revelations thread.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13289584#13289584
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There's always the solution to just stack the deck so the last card is a YANAC. devil If the other players don't know, problem solved.
 
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SnarksandBoojums wrote:
There's always the solution to just stack the deck so the last card is a YANAC. devil If the other players don't know, problem solved.
But you know. shake

But if you're teaching the game to a group of newbies and don't want their experience to be marred by a 1-cylon game, go for it. devil
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selwyth wrote:
SnarksandBoojums wrote:
There's always the solution to just stack the deck so the last card is a YANAC. devil If the other players don't know, problem solved.
But you know. shake

But if you're teaching the game to a group of newbies and don't want their experience to be marred by a 1-cylon game, go for it. devil
Yeah..in all honesty, I usually just don't worry about the extra loyalty card. My group isn't nearly paranoid enough to make it work. Plus, if there's only one Cylon, I'll almost inevitably get fingered as the second...I have a reputation for playing the deep game. whistle
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Pieter
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My own solution would basically be: use Personal Goals, deal loyalty cards as is normal in Base and Pegasus, and build a separate stack which contains, for instance, 3 Personal Goals and 3 YANAC cards. Before the sleeper-agent phase, if someone gets executed, he draws a card from the remaining regular loyalty cards, which then get a card from the separate stack. After the sleeper-agent phase, if someone gets executed, he draws a new loyalty card from the separate stack. This means that you are sure that after the sleeper-agent phase both Cylon cards are out, so you can also be certain about someone's loyalty when executing him after the sleeper-agent phase. However, by doing that, you also know that you are introducing Personal Goals.

If you want to be even more nasty, make the separate stack consist of only Personal Goals, and make an executed character draw 2 of them if he turns out not to be a Cylon. I don't think humans will be willing to execute someone on a whim then.
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
My own solution would basically be: use Personal Goals, deal loyalty cards as is normal in Base and Pegasus, and build a separate stack which contains, for instance, 3 Personal Goals and 3 YANAC cards. Before the sleeper-agent phase, if someone gets executed, he draws a card from the remaining regular loyalty cards, which then get a card from the separate stack. After the sleeper-agent phase, if someone gets executed, he draws a new loyalty card from the separate stack. This means that you are sure that after the sleeper-agent phase both Cylon cards are out, so you can also be certain about someone's loyalty when executing him after the sleeper-agent phase. However, by doing that, you also know that you are introducing Personal Goals.

If you want to be even more nasty, make the separate stack consist of only Personal Goals, and make an executed character draw 2 of them if he turns out not to be a Cylon. I don't think humans will be willing to execute someone on a whim then.
This is very similar to what my group has done forever. We originally created an "execution" deck of 1 Cylon and 5 YANAC cards, which was quite the disincentive, but a little swingy. Since we've started playing with variant Cylon Sympathisers, we now have a deck that is 1 Sympathiser and 5 YANAC, although that wouldn't work with just base game symps.
 
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