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Subject: 2nd Edition Counters rss

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Jim Dauphinais
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I just received the 2013 Edition of the game. I assume I only need the ten countersheets included. In other words, Countersheet 11 only needs to be ordered from GMT if you have the 2003 Edition of the game, correct?
 
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Gary Goh
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Yes, that's exactly right
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Chris Friend
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Yes. What Gary said.
(BTW, if you can actually make your way thru the rules, and actually understand them, and play a game, I and millions of other wragamers would love to hear about it.)
Good gaming, and good luck!
 
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Jim Dauphinais
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Thanks guys.

I have been browsing the rules booklet to prepare to try to solo the North Africa scenario. It is bringing a back a lot of fond memories of the original Third Reich game.

I kind of found it hilarious that the multi-hundred page, perfect bound rulebook is titled a "Rules Booklet" while most much lighter games refer to their rulebooks as a "Rulebook".

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Tom Willcockson
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Not one to complain and I'm very happy with the game, but cutting out my counters last night I noticed they are just a little bit on the thin side making them a bit difficult to pick up unless using tweezers. Not sure if I got a set on a thin run of cardboard or if they all are like this. As I say I'm not going to make a big deal about it if that is just how they are, but any thinner and I would be a bit peeved.
 
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Nick Blank
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Not just you. That is how they are producing counters now. They are a bit harder to pick up, though stacks are shorter now.

The thing I noticed is that the counters from countersheet 11 are now incorporated onto the 10 original sheets, to make room most nations lost some DD and CA counters, France and Russia lost their search/cover/attack markers, there are fewer beach defense markers, and other adjustments were made. There are fewer subs/ASW counters. This was to allow the combat group counters and other things to fit in the original counter set. Generics cover some of these (like the search/cover/attack markers) but hopefully these adjustments will not lead to shortages of things. (I worry a bit about subs/ASWs, and the reduction of DD and CA counters, but perhaps the new naval system means we don't need as many, or perhaps the full amount were rarely used in the earlier edition.)

Really like the look of everything though, the rulebook(let) seems quite solid, and I can't wait to play! The only missprint I have found so far is the German flag symbol on the Europe Axis Naval Chart didn't print completely.
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Tom Willcockson
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Yea I noticed that as well. Thought perhaps it was to allow the game to be sold in Europe but then I saw plenty of the offending symbol in other places so it must be a mis-print. But hmmm the counters are pretty thin, somewhat disappointing. If this is how GMT is going to do all their counter sets from now on it will definitely be a factor in my deciding whether to get a game. I may just have to break out my unpunched first edition set which I was planning to keep as a backup copy. But finally getting around to learning this one now and otherwise it looks fantastic.
 
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Bill K
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I, too, noticed that the counters are very thin.
 
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Adam Parker
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Guys, this may be a first time purchase of the game for me (though I played 3R on the PC to death - loved reading along with my old Generals!)

But how thin is "thin"?

Do you have a comparison I can visualize in my head before making my buying decision? It is expensive.

Thanks.
 
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Andreas Lundin
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In my copy of the game the counters aren't thinner than in other GMT games. They are thinner than the original 3R counters but that goes for all modern war games.
 
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Bill K
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Adam Parker wrote:
But how thin is "thin"?

Just happen to have micrometers right here . . .

The AWAW Second Edition counters are 1.15 mm or 0.044 inches thick.

The old Third Reich counters were 1.44 mm or 0.056 inches thick.

For comparison, Steve Jackson Game's "Ogre" counters--the ones that you cut out with scissors--were 0.48 mm or 0.019 inches thick.

(The core material can also matter, but I don't have anything to measure the stiffness of materials.)

Some of GMT's newer counters are, btw, really thick, as in Ardennes '44 Second Edition.


But all that being said, I think the new AWAW counters will be thick enough to play just fine.

------------ UPDATE ---------------------

I've punched out a few counters and have tried stacking them and picking them up from a plexiglass surface. In point of fact I dislike their thinness and their lightness: yes, they are playable, but I find it difficult with my fat fingers to pick up a single counter without resorting to using my fingernails.
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Bill K
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Changes in Counter Counts
I compared the first edition countersheets (of which there were 11) to the second edition countersheets (of which there are 10), just wondering what was given up to squeeze the 11 sheets onto 10. Below is a list of the significant differences I noticed.

Note: Some of the counters on the 11th countersheet were typo corrections or replacements for earlier counters (Japanese SNLF, Interceptors in different colors); and some counters are no longer needed due to rule changes (such as not needing more than 4 Jets per nation, or any Flak denominations larger than 3, or ICs of value 25 BRPs, or Greece's excess 2-3s).

In general, there isn't much difference. Yes, a few counters were shimmed here or there. (Britain, for instance, has three fewer DD-1s in the second edition--going from 15 down to 12, 2 fewer DD-2s, 1 fewer CVE-2, 1 fewer CVE-1, etc.)

Noteworthy Differences:
-----------------------
Indian National Army: 2 fewer 2-2s, 2 fewer 1-2s.
Wang Army: 1 fewer 2-2, 1 fewer 1-2.
US: 4 fewer 4-4 AAFs (going from 10 to 6), 4 fewer CA-6s (going from 8 to 4).
Germany: 4 fewer flag markers.
Japan: no high-denomination Subs or ASW.
Utility: no Grant counters, 6 fewer Railhead counters (going from 12 to 6), 5 fewer Bridgehead counters (going from 15 to 10).

I don't foresee these changes causing shortages, except possibly the Railhead counters or the US CA-6s in rare games. (The INA and Wang changes do constitute a rulechange since the counterset was a limit on what could be built, but I suspect the counterset rarely proved to be the limiting factor.)

Unlike the first edition (if my memory serves), this second edition comes with counters that are backprinted with the nation's color, which is a great plus for sorting counters and for inverting air and naval units.
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Gary Goh
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Smash62bill wrote:
I compared the first edition countersheets (of which there were 11) to the second edition countersheets (of which there are 10), just wondering what was given up to squeeze the 11 sheets onto 10. Below is a list of the significant differences I noticed.

Note: Some of the counters on the 11th countersheet were typo corrections or replacements for earlier counters (Japanese SNLF, Interceptors in different colors); and some counters are no longer needed due to rule changes (such as not needing more than 4 Jets per nation, or any Flak denominations larger than 3, or ICs of value 25 BRPs, or Greece's excess 2-3s).

In general, there isn't much difference. Yes, a few counters were shimmed here or there. (Britain, for instance, has three fewer DD-1s in the second edition--going from 15 down to 12, 2 fewer DD-2s, 1 fewer CVE-2, 1 fewer CVE-1, etc.)

Noteworthy Differences:
-----------------------
Indian National Army: 2 fewer 2-2s, 2 fewer 1-2s.
Wang Army: 1 fewer 2-2, 1 fewer 1-2.
US: 4 fewer 4-4 AAFs (going from 10 to 6), 4 fewer CA-6s (going from 8 to 4).
Germany: 4 fewer flag markers.
Japan: no high-denomination Subs or ASW.
Utility: no Grant counters, 6 fewer Railhead counters (going from 12 to 6), 5 fewer Bridgehead counters (going from 15 to 10).

I don't foresee these changes causing shortages, except possibly the Railhead counters or the US CA-6s in rare games. (The INA and Wang changes do constitute a rulechange since the counterset was a limit on what could be built, but I suspect the counterset rarely proved to be the limiting factor.)

Unlike the first edition (if my memory serves), this second edition comes with counters that are backprinted with the nation's color, which is a great plus for sorting counters and for inverting air and naval units.


I'm having an issue now with a shortage of Japanese sub counters. The second edition only contains 4 Japanese submarine counters, while the gameplay allows for 6 submarines to conduct SW combat by 1946 and many more to operate on the mapboard. I'm using the U-boat counters as a substitute, though I wonder about the reduction of these counters since relying on submarines seems like a feasible strategy for the Japanese player.
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