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Subject: Hate Cards rss

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Tom Keaten
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Hey all,

I was combing through some deck concepts and discussions of Katman, etc., and a thought occurred to me. We all know the Runner has various Hate cards at their disposal, most of which at a cheap Influence cost, that they can splash based on the Corp layout in their local meta. These are:

Haas: e3 Feedback Implants
Jinteki: Deus X, Feedback Filter, Net Shield (lol), Monolith (grander lol)
NBN: All Link cards - Identities, Borrowed Satellite, Dyson Mem Chip, Rabbit Hole, The Toolbox, etc.
Weyland: Plascrete Carapace, Muresh Body Suit, Crash Space

In addition, you've got Borrowed Satellite, Public Sympathy, and Feedback Filter that help with Brain Damage, if that's something you see a bit of.

Now, let's flip that coin. What, if anything, can a Corp bring to the table as a Hate card for their local meta?

Noise: Jackson Howard
Whizzard: No trashable assets/upgrades?
Criminal: ??
Shaper: Forced shuffle to counter Indexing? Corporate Troubleshooter?

I may be missing some, but I really don't see anywhere near the hate toward Runners. How much, if at all, does this affect the Runner lean of the game? Designing hate toward Runners isn't nearly as clear-cut, in my mind, so if they were to include some, what would it be? Do you think that would be welcome in the design space?
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Ben Parker
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Stuff like Archer that trashes programs? Other carda trash resources and connections and stuff.
 
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Tom Keaten
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But those are generic powerful effect against all Runners, much like Account Siphon and Emergency Shutdown are great no matter what Corp you're hitting. Maybe the Runners are all a bit more nebulous, which makes actual counters challenging to include.
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Chris Ferejohn
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Fwiw that does seem to make thematic sense. A runner may have it in for a specific corporation. Corporations are much more about pursuing their own agendas. Not sure if that was intentional - being able to more specifically build against the local meta would probably give corp a much needed boost (and allow for counter strategies, analogous to when a runner is suddenly left with useless plascretes when playing against a corp deck that doesn't inflict meat damage).
 
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Roberta Yang
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Runner decks also have more room to include things like hate cards. Outside of weird edge decks like iceless Cerebral Imaging, corp decks are forced to dedicate the majority of their deck space to ice and agendas, and they really want to include a lot of econ in the remaining space to avoid falling hopelessly far behind. Runner decks have more flexibility.
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Seth M
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b a n j o wrote:
I think Closed Accounts is hate towards Criminals.


Hate towards self-tag decks (which includes Criminals but also Vamp+MO) but yeah totally a hate card and that's why I run it in HB which is otherwise the faction people are most likely to float tags against because they are in-faction toothless.
 
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Madd Cow
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Neksol wrote:
Hey all,

I was combing through some deck concepts and discussions of Katman, etc., and a thought occurred to me. We all know the Runner has various Hate cards at their disposal, most of which at a cheap Influence cost, that they can splash based on the Corp layout in their local meta. These are:

Haas: e3 Feedback Implants
Jinteki: Deus X, Feedback Filter, Net Shield (lol), Monolith (grander lol)
NBN: All Link cards - Identities, Borrowed Satellite, Dyson Mem Chip, Rabbit Hole, The Toolbox, etc.
Weyland: Plascrete Carapace, Muresh Body Suit, Crash Space

In addition, you've got Borrowed Satellite, Public Sympathy, and Feedback Filter that help with Brain Damage, if that's something you see a bit of.

Now, let's flip that coin. What, if anything, can a Corp bring to the table as a Hate card for their local meta?

Noise: Jackson Howard
Whizzard: No trashable assets/upgrades?
Criminal: ??
Shaper: Forced shuffle to counter Indexing? Corporate Troubleshooter?

I may be missing some, but I really don't see anywhere near the hate toward Runners. How much, if at all, does this affect the Runner lean of the game? Designing hate toward Runners isn't nearly as clear-cut, in my mind, so if they were to include some, what would it be? Do you think that would be welcome in the design space?


Don't knock Net Shield. It REALLY hurts Jinteki PE. It basically negates their ID as well as make it really hard to pull off EMP death. Heck, with Net shield, Ronin only does 2 if it goes off for only 1 credit. Granted, the others are much better, but net shield is still a big hate card for Jinteki.

Ironically enough, Public Sympathy is a universal hate card. It helps prevent a LOT of flatlines against the runner if you keep a full stocked hand.
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Troy Jennings
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Jackson Howard isn't a Noise hate card, Noise is just an unfortunate casualty of Howard's all-round amazingness.
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Evan
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Well, there's Cyberdex of course, and Foxfire...I'd also claim that Viper counts as Yog-hate, and, although I've haven't used it enough to be sure, Tyr's Hand might be some kind of E3 meta-hate (a category that also includes Net Police, I guess?*).

On the whole, there's a decent amount of hate to go around, but one difference is that they don't usually counter faction-specific strengths in the way that many of the runners' hate cards do.



*That category being both "meta-hate" and "cards I don't play"
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Drake Villareal
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Corps have...yep!

Criminal - Program destruction

Shaper - Resource destruction

Anarch - Program destruction

 
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Roberta Yang
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b a n j o wrote:
Snare! is hate towards runners in general, as is all ICE in the game.

If you think about it, Armitage Codebusting is hate toward every corp because it helps the runner beat them.
 
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Ony Moose
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Freelancer, PowerGrid Overload, Cyberdex Trial, Foxfire are all good hate cards. Foxfire is great vs xanadu/ice carver/dyson mem chip. Cyberdex is great vs viruses.
 
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Gabriel Sibley
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I think hate cards in NR are more anti-archetype (e.g. anti-flatline, anti-fast-advance, anti-bioroid) than anti-faction. However, corp archetypes are associated with particular factions perhaps more strongly than runner archetypes are. So the hate seems more directly anti-faction.
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David Sleaze
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OddCrow19 wrote:
Corps have...yep!


Shaper - Resource destruction

Anarch - Program destruction



Shaper: What do Shapers care about Resource exept Pro Contacts? For Programs: Clone Chip , Test Run
Anarch: Deja Vu , Retrival Run

Corp: Gets one Bad Pub to rezz a Programm destruction ICE
 
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