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Subject: Give Magic Geek his DEW - but Moria and Morannon still fall rss

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The long-awaited inter-continental clash took place this evening. I took the Free People against Magic Geek - inventor of the DEW North strategy.

With the Shadow rolling an eye The Free People went for the military victory from the off: all the companions moved into Moria leaving Sam and Frodo tucked up in Rivendell - but it was not to be a quiet evening for them.

WoWs were a long time coming and Aragorn was not crowned until turn three (or was it four?); meanwhile the Shadow had executed a very good DEW North with the attack on Woodland Realm co-ordinated with that of Rivendell.

But the Elves began to muster in Lorien and Aragorn, Boromir and a hobbit started to raise troops in the White City. Minas Tirith soon was home to a large army staring out to Mordor.

Osgiliath was reinforced just before the Southrons and Easterlings could take it and then A Day and a Night saw the Gondor army at Dagorlad's Black Gate facing just two Sauron regulars. The Witch King flew back to Minas Morgul to lead the counterattack but meanwhile Aragorn attacked Morannon - while the Elves moved on Moria.

The final turn saw the Shadow roll four eyes (how often has that happened?): Morannon was swiftly taken and Gandalf the Grey and a hobbit led the Elvish storming of Moria. The Sauron army came back from Rivendell (leaving Sam and Frodo to reappear from hiding) and made a half-hearted attempt to recapture Moria but it was never going to succeed.

At the end, Morannon and Moria were both held by six-hit armies. The Shadow rebellion had been crushed.

-------------------

I had better than average battle dice rolls but I was hampered by never being able to bring in Gandalf the White.

Magic Geek rolled one eye on the first turn and two eyes thereafter until four on the final turn. That was unlucky.

[in all this, do remember that history is written by the winners]
 
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Daniel Edwards
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Interesting. Thanks for the report.

This whole strategy just seems so unintuitive to me that after analysing it a bit I really dismissed as something that wouldn't work against a good opponent. Now I'll have to give it a try.

Do we get to hear MG's side?
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Wow.
 
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Matthew M
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Re: Give Magic Geek his DEW - but Moria and Morannon still f
Wow indeed!

-MMM
 
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Ken B.
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Re: Give Magic Geek his DEW - but Moria and Morannon still f
Awesome to see how a one-dimensional strategy was crushed by another one.


Hopefully that puts the whole "DEW North" thing to rest, finally. It's a valid strategy and a good one, but not 'broken'.


I'm seeing a lot of reports of Fellowship Military Rush lately, I may have to try that next time.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Fellowship Military Rush seems to rely on a) Lorien and b) Gondor.

DEW North is predicated on avoiding b, at least in the early stages.
 
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Fellowship Military Rush seems to rely on a) Lorien and b) Gondor.

Added to that list is

c) The Last (Grand) Alliance of Men and Elves (and Dwarves) - if DEW is ignored.

A force up there can become quite sizable and roll through Morannon and/or Dol Goldur and/or Moria while Gondor and Rohan burn.
 
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Derek Coon
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Was he putting zero Eyes in the hunt pool? Do you think he would have won after 6 turns?
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Re: Give Magic Geek his DEW - but Moria and Morannon still f
MG has said from the get-go that this is the main remaining weakness of DEW North. He just claims a (IIRC) 95% win ratio as shadow.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah but a and b are lot easier to do than c, I think. The Elves are already activated, and Gondor is one step closer to war. The starting troops in Lorien and Minas Tirith are impressive.

There are no points in Rhun, of course... I did have the whole Dwarven muster pool invade East Rhun oncelaugh (solo game).
 
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Sean McCarthy
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One of the funniest things you can do to aid a FP military victory, if you get 3 swords turn one, is to move the FSP three times so it gets to Moria. Then you can play It Is A Gift to make the siege a lot easier. (The other benefit is that you can split the companions off directly to Lorien or Eastemnet.)

This is most efficient if you feel like you have a chance of changing back to a Fellowship plan. Otherwise it's kind of silly.

Doing this also allows you to delay your decision of military vs Fellowship until after the turn two action roll.
 
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Bullroarer Took wrote:
Was he putting zero Eyes in the hunt pool? Do you think he would have won after 6 turns?

He never put any eyes in the Hunt Pool: none on turn one (on which re rolled one eye) and none after that.

Even though the Shadow was on only seven VPS when I won, he would probably have won the following turn if one of my attacks had failed - eg, there was just one regular guarding Minas Tirith.
 
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Philip Thomas
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If you get 3 swords you can crown Aragorn on turn 1 though. But I gues that is just 1 dice lost. Also if you get revealed you are in a pickle, unless Strider is the guide. I suppose it is a 0 eyes strategy, and also you can let Aragorn get to Dol Amroth instead. mmm. I won't play this game until April 29th you know. Probably not then...

Shadow also has One for the Dark Lord, which he can use if he is sure about you not going for ring victory.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Philip Thomas wrote:
If you get 3 swords you can crown Aragorn on turn 1 though. But I gues that is just 1 dice lost.


Sorry, I meant 3 swords and no WotW.

Quote:
Also if you get revealed you are in a pickle,


Not really. You don't worry about corruption against a military opponent, and being revealed allows you separate companions immediately if you have the die/card.

Quote:
Shadow also has One for the Dark Lord, which he can use if he is sure about you not going for ring victory.


Indeed, but adding one to combat rolls is much better for the besieger than the besieged.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Re: Give Magic Geek his DEW - but Moria and Morannon still f
If I roll 3 swords on turn one and I'm playing Magic Geek, I would definately move the fellowship to Moria. Then I'd ... keep going! 3 swords is a helluva start for strider sprint.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Well, if you rolled MMMP turn two you would pretty much fail to keep going.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Actually if I rolled 3 Swords and no WOW against 0 eyes I would move the fellowship 4 times and declare in Dimrill Dale, so as to not draw the extra Moria tile. Or am I getting muddled, does declaring in Moria work for that?

You are the besieger initially. But quite likely Shadow will come besieging Moria soon enough!
 
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I have not read any of the other posts in this thread, not yet anyway.
Both game boards are owned by truely lovely people.

The games so far.

Shadow

1 Loss Free Military Dew North (Wrong House Rules)
2 Win Dew North turn 7 (?)
4 Win Dew North turn 8
5 Win Dew North turn 6
6 Win Dew North turn 6
7 Win Dew North turn 6 (tried turn 5)
10 Win Dew North turn 6
11 Win Dew North, Gandalf + King die at Barad Dur.
12 Win Dew North turn 7 (Free on 4VP)
14 Loss Turn 7 Ring beat turn 7 Dewish (Erebor was WRONG)
15 Win Dew North turn 7 (bad play on my side, 53 dice to kill basic WR)

Dew North is broken, it just is. I have lost 2 games so far as shadow on this trolliday, and both of them were, well, dodgey.
The first game involved Morranon being attacked with a Palantir. I said, "Huh? you cant do that?", so he reads me the rules. And he is right, except that other parts of the rules use the same words to mean other things, as I later figured out.

page 15, under Conducting a Siege
"When a stronghold is under siege, the troops winthin can only be attacked by an army in the same region using an Action Die for battle during the Action Resolution step."

So he used "an Action Die", a palantir, to conquer Morranon.
Just like he always did.

Yes, this is wrong.
Yes, they play it differently now, but that was only after I had some time and access to another opponent. If you dont know why, someone out there will enlighten you. Probably someone who likes semantics.
Yes, he could have used his first ring. But so would I. At least part of the point is he would not have attacked if we were playing the same rules. I certainly would have played different.

In that first game with the dodgey seige rules, I played it very wrong. I should have just attacked and won, but instead I defended, rolled lots of Eyes and just couldn't get the 30 figures to Morranon to wipe them out. I mean, it was just all wrong all round.

He managed to kill 9 orcs and 4 naz while taking 2 losses.
He rolled 3 hits on both oppening attacks on the shadow strongholds, and yes it mattered as the Elves held off a strong counter attack for the game.
But, to his credit he did play it right. Through a day and a night to Dagorlad, good preparation, good card play, stupid opponent and brilliant dice rolling to abysmal. Perfect.

This does have some very serious implications to some of the statements coming out of England about Free Military. It is much, MUCH, more difficult. Sure, the shadow has a harder time if they cant spend a muster to siege, but the free just dont have enough dice to attack.


The other shadow loss just went wrong. I played it badly, but also the game just refused to be fair. The iron dwarves of Erebor dealt 12? damage before taking a hit. I rolled 0 from 32, with cards. Woodland Realm was never crushed so I couldn't do turn 6. I spent a long time thinking on turn 6. EVERY victory point could be taken, easily, but always only 4 of the 5 I needed. So I started attacking to get any form of interference, and still couldn't kill anyone or draw anything.
Strike team Mordor went for Rohan, if they had of gone to DEW like good little boys, things would have been different.
Even so, shadow still had enough on turn 7 for the win.

All of the other shadow games were clockwork.
Strider would stride across the map, get one turn in Mordor, and lose.
Some games they didn't get to Mordor. I think I will never randomly kill Strider. It just doesn't happen.
One was a turn 6 while we watched Resident Evil, it really is like clockwork. Eyes in this game had ZERO effect. No muster dice were used to muster units. In one game I did get to attempt a probable turn 5 win, but settled for turn 6.


Free
3 Loss My Frodo dies next to Mt Doom (Shadow going nowhere militarily)8 Win Free Military Victory (LONG GAME)
9 Win Fellowship (18 turns, 3 Free cards left to draw)
13 Loss My Frodo dies on Mt Doom (Slow Shadow)
16 Win Frodo makes it up Mt Doom on turn 10. Minas T holds out.

Three from Five with the Free is V Good, but dieing next to Mt Doom in a friendly pool is irritating. Exactly dieing on Mt Doom was worse.
Both of those games were about scattering the companions, fighting, and then racing up Mt Doom.

Game 8 could have been a Ring victory, probably, but I attacked and killed the Witch King and Saruman so the military option was just easier. It was a long, hard fought game. I wrote down all of the remaining units I had to muster because I thought there was no way I would ever muster that many units again. Then the next game was sillier.

Every draw card card was used. The Free had 3 turns without strategy cards. At game end, 7 muster dice would empty the Free force pool. Erebor, Dale and Lorien were liberated, Woodland Realm and Minas T were to be next on the list, but Rohan was truely lost.
At one point there were 14 different possible areas of interaction on the map. After a while my head hurt.


Summary
Dew North is wrong.

It is very interesting to play against good players that have so far been isolated. Everything is almost right, but you would be surprised how small differences do make a difference.

The physical way that people play is really odd. Where they put the extra dice, where they roll the dice, put used cards, put the dead, put the character cards, put the hunt pool and the drawn tiles, and the character cards.

Turning a muster dice to a combo at the start of the turn when the Mouth is in play is a good idea. Stuff like that.

And there is a surprising number of rules questions.
The old 6 dice on we come to kill out of Orthanc.
Does deadly spells activate / advance a nation?
Is an army with a Nazgul a sauron army?
When a Dwarf leader dies with a north regular, do the dwarves advance on the political track?
Does the Spirit of Mordor (where ever that may be) count for nazgul?
Does that mean the witch king can be summoned where a Nazgul is because it is a sauron army?
Can words of power be used when attack an army without a character?
Can Grond and Fighting Uruk-Hai be extended past the 3 rounds?
Can a reinforce card be played when besieging the place they arrive? eg I besiege Minas T, can I play gaurds of the citadel?
Does gollum ignore the reveal when the last hobbit pops?
Most of these I know, few of them I can prove.

Neat trick
1) Gandalf goes to the Fords of Isen.
2) Riders of Theoden creates an army at the fords.
3) Gandalf conquers or liberates out of nowhere.

devil

It has been a blast.
Holing up with people that actively love the game was great.
The travelling has been hard core.
Car, Train, Train, Train, Train, Bus, Bus, Ferry, Bus, Car, Car, Walk, was the sequence in ONE DAY!
 
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Philip Thomas
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The attack with the Palantir die- did he have an elven ring left? If so he could have used it to change the die and so the result should stand...
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Nice summary, Magic Geek.

It makes me start to think I just always get lucky with Strider, to win by turn 6. If so, that is clearly the best FP strategy.
 
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Philip Thomas wrote:
The attack with the Palantir die- did he have an elven ring left? If so he could have used it to change the die and so the result should stand...

I did have an elven ring left - but I conquered Morannon on the previous turn so that extra elven ring in Shadow hands for the final turn could well have made the difference.
 
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Daniel Edwards
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Im not sure that using a palantir to generate a siege battle is always more beneficial to the free than the shadow. The shadow tends to have more "excess" palantir dice and the free often have the ability to downgrade elites more to continue battles than the shadow.

It certainly makes military strategies (from either side) stronger.

Its unclear from the summary whether anyone tried to DEW north Magic Geek when he played free
 
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These are good questions. I'm surprised no one has addressed them. Any of these questions that isn't on the FAQ should be added to the FAQ. Kristofer, could you do that?

Magic Geek wrote:
The old 6 dice on we come to kill out of Orthanc.

Good question. Nothing in the FAQ about it. My opinion (and it's just an opinion) is that you roll 5 dice max, since that's consistent with all the rest of the game.

Magic Geek wrote:
Does deadly spells activate / advance a nation?

Yes, from the FAQ: Q Which Event Cards constitute an attack for political purposes?

Magic Geek wrote:
Is an army with a Nazgul a sauron army?

No, per the rules, page 7, "A Leader is not considered an Army Unit and cannot be taken as a casualty..." Also on page 7, definition of "Army" as "All Army units inside a single Region and controlled by the same player are considered a single group and are collectively called an Army."

Magic Geek wrote:
When a Dwarf leader dies with a north regular, do the dwarves advance on the political track?

No, per the previous question, and page 16, under "Advancing a Political Position:" "Additionally, the counter of a Nation is automatically advanced one space if any of the following conditions apply: Every time a Nation's Army is attacked..." And Leaders don't make up an army.
It would be a strange situation for this to be possible - the most likely situation would be a Dwarf leader in Iron Hills (not mustered - just moved) and retreated them to Dale. Strange.

Magic Geek wrote:
Does the Spirit of Mordor (where ever that may be) count for nazgul?

No, per card text: "Attack a Shadow army composed of units of different Nations." Nazgul are not units.

Magic Geek wrote:
Does that mean the witch king can be summoned where a Nazgul is because it is a sauron army?

No, only where there is a shadow unit.

Magic Geek wrote:
Can words of power be used when attack an army without a character?

My opinion (and it's just an opinion) is that you can, without effect. The card text is: Play if a Nazgul is in the battle. Choose a Companion: ignore his Leadership and special abilities for this round.
Since the bold part is usually the only thing that restricts the play of the card, I think it can be legally played if you have a Nazgul, just to cycle it from your hand.

Magic Geek wrote:
Can Grond and Fighting Uruk-Hai be extended past the 3 rounds?

Yes, per the FAQ, Q 'Grond, Hammer of the Underworld' - Can the Shadow reduce Elite units to keep the attack going after the third combat round is played, in the same way as he can after each combat round in a normal siege?

Magic Geek wrote:
Can a reinforce card be played when besieging the place they arrive? eg I besiege Minas T, can I play gaurds of the citadel?

Yes, per the FAQ: Q 'Cirdan's Ships' - Can this card be played to recruit the Elven units in a Stronghold even if the Stronghold is under siege?
Also, the rules, page 12, under "Recruiting Restrictions," state, "You cannot muster troops in a Stronghold besieged (see later) by the enemy, unless you are recruiting with an Event card." Which clearly means if you're using an event card, you can recruit into a besieged stronghold.

Magic Geek wrote:
Does gollum ignore the reveal when the last hobbit pops?

According to the FAQ, the answer is No. Personally, I think it should be Yes; this is one of the very few cases that I disagree with the FAQ. I have a pending question to FFG to get a clarification on that ruling, because it's inconsistent with the way the hobbits work. Per the FAQ: Q Can Gollum use any of his Guide abilities immediately if the last Companion separates or is eliminated by a Hunt tile?

I hope this helps, and I hope these good questions get added to the FAQ!

Ira
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Dave J McWeasely
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Re: Give Magic Geek his DEW - but Moria and Morannon still f
Quote:
Can a reinforce card be played when besieging the place they arrive? eg I besiege Minas T, can I play gaurds of the citadel?
This specific case is also explicitly in the FAQ. You CAN muster on the outside of your stronghold if you have the card.

Why everyone asks this about Guards of the Citadel, and not the general case, I don't know.
 
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Ira Fay
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MrWeasely wrote:
Quote:
Can a reinforce card be played when besieging the place they arrive? eg I besiege Minas T, can I play gaurds of the citadel?
This specific case is also explicitly in the FAQ. You CAN muster on the outside of your stronghold if you have the card.

Why everyone asks this about Guards of the Citadel, and not the general case, I don't know.


Oh, I misunderstood the question. You're right, of course, Mr. Weasely. Thanks for the clarification!

I suspect people ask about Guards of the Citadel because that's when it comes up.

Ira
 
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