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Subject: CCG To start with... rss

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Ahmed Alabbasi
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What is the best CCG to start with...

I could use the help to make a list of games to start with and going on, so far I have only played board games & RPGs. I beleive it is about time to give CCG a try.

Shall I start with Magic: The Gathering ???

I would appreciate any input.

Thanks
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Benjamin Roffey
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As a person who has sunk thousands of dollars and hours into Magic, my recommendation is don't. It requires either a very specific mindset or gaming group to derive enjoyment out of CCG's, and if you're not playing them already, you probably won't really enjoy them.

On the other hand, the LCG's, Android: Netrunner, The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game, etc. are excellent, have very similar deck construction systems to magic, and in my mind are an excellent starting point to see if deck construction games are your thing.

If you do decide to go for a CCG, Magic all the way. It's the most popular for good reason, has a relatively easy learning curve to pick up, though quite hard to master, and has a very active global tournament scene. I'd recommend looking into limited events (drafts/sealed) at first, as no matter what type of constructed you want to play, it'll cost a lot.
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Jude Mapp
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I would whole-heartedly agree with Benjamin. Magic does have the most approachable mechanics and the easiest learning curve but it is a huge money sink.
I would also recommend pickling up one of FFG's LCGs. Warhammer: Invasion is probably the simplest with several parallels to MtG. Netrunner is the most complex, but also for me, the most fun. They're all good though.
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Jamie Vantries
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Unless you're planning to play in tournaments, there's no reason you would have to spend a lot of money to play Magic: the gathering. Any of FFG's LCGs are excellent choices too. I think the only other CCGs that are even around anymore besides Magic is Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon.
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Jude Mapp
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And L5R, which is still big and with one of the best communities in gaming, but it does have one of the most complex set of mechanics.
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Cyrus the Great
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Absolutely Magic. The best one, and likely the easiest one to find opponents for. Limited formats are awesome.
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Austin Andersen
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It's like saying what drug should I start with... I'd avoid the CCG format altogether.
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Kevin Eastwood
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A lot of people are critical of MtG because of the money sink that accompanies that CCG. I can say though that if you're purely playing for pleasure and not tournaments, you can find yourself a heap of common and uncommon cards for cheap money. It's the rare cards that will cost you, but are not needed to enjoy the game.
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Ahmed Alabbasi
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eastwoodk wrote:
A lot of people are critical of MtG because of the money sink that accompanies that CCG. I can say though that if you're purely playing for pleasure and not tournaments, you can find yourself a heap of common and uncommon cards for cheap money. It's the rare cards that will cost you, but are not needed to enjoy the game.


I was wondering about that fact, that I only should consider CCG if I am going to play in tournaments and else.

The fact that I still can enjoy the game with common and uncommon cards should be enough reason to give MtG a try as well instead of writing it off from the start!!!

I love gaming but I don't think that I will invest much in the cards as there are not a lot of gamers to play against here in my region, therefore it will be useless from me to build a good deck from those rare cards that cost a lot.

So besides MtG, The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game,Android: Netrunner, Warhammer: Invasion. What else is out there??
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Jose Miguel Miguel
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Magic should be the most awesome CCG you can try.
I' m also agree with those who say that MTG is only expensive atcompetitive level. But on the other hand playing limited formats are very skillfull. My recommendation is buy some Events Deck, learn to play, and then go intolimited formats.
On the other hand, LCG are a great place to start. When you want to get into the card games. Simply because you get what you need to play for and a friend from the first box, that would never happen with mtg.

MTG -> best ccg in the world, expensive, high level of complexity.
LCG -> very good games, you control the budget you want to spend, growing level of complexity with any new addition.

Booth mtg or any other card game will become expensive inthe moment you start playing competitive. An average for a competitive mtg deck is over u$1.000 or u$1.550 easily. On the other hand you need around u$400 to get the entire collection of Netrunner, or more if you want AGOT entire collection, but then you have everything you need for the rest of your life.

Is up to you, but my recommendation is that MTG is the best game.
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Marius van der Merwe
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The people responding to your post are all giving you good advice. I have played a number of different ccg's over many years and the biggest constraint in my experience is to find dedicated opponents to play against. The interests of your potential opponents should thus be an important factor in your decision.

As far as the excellence of game mechanics and game play goes my favorite ccg's of all time were Warhammer 40,000 Collectible Card Game and Deadlands: Doomtown, both which are not around anymore (probably due to a relatively steep learning curve compared to the ccg's that are still around after many years). Recently I have been playing a few games of the living card game Star Wars: The Card Game and having much fun with it. Android: Netrunner is another good one that I have played a couple of times, but in my area I am unable to find regular opponents for it.
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Jonathan Challis
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Magic or WoW are the only games in town, and the only ones I would recommend (MtG being my personal favourite). That said, CCG's are about the tournament scene (and LCG's are a really poor imitation in that respect) - if you just want a casual game, you don't want a CCG, you want an LCG.

CCG's and LCG's are very different animals. Both are good for the right audience, but they are very different audiences.
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Cyrus the Great
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pppalma wrote:

An average for a competitive mtg deck is over u$1.000 or u$1.550 easily.

That is an exaggeration. Almost any Standard (by far the most played Constructed format) deck will be less than $300-400, and there are many competitive ones for under $150. Even in Modern, the only other really popular constructed format, a good deck will only be around $600. Only in Legacy or Vintage do decks approach $1,000.
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Jonathan Challis
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Renaissance Man wrote:
pppalma wrote:

An average for a competitive mtg deck is over u$1.000 or u$1.550 easily.

That is an exaggeration. Almost any Standard (by far the most played Constructed format) deck will be less than $300-400, and there are many competitive ones for under $150. Even in Modern, the only other really popular constructed format, a good deck will only be around $600.


No, the first estimate was closer.

The problem is that even if something remains the best deck, it evolves through a set, usually changes each set, and almost always each block.

Renaissance Man wrote:

Only in Legacy or Vintage do decks approach $1,000.


Umm...? You really have no clue...

I have easily a dozen cards worth over $1k EACH in vintage, without going into all the dual lands, workshops, mana drains, and other stuff.

Now my cards are all beta rather than unlimited (which pushes the price up) but of the many, many vintage decks I've played (up to #3 in the nationals) few come in at under $10-15k. There's the occasional cheap build comes up, never the best, but able to compete for a season sometimes, but mostly you are looking at a very expensive format.

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Ryan Smith
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I would say get a LCG. Will still be a lot of money to spend if you get into it, but nowhere as bad as Magic. If you are not really sure about Magic you can get the current PC version for about 15$ or something and see if you like the mechanics enought to try it. If you are not prepared to spend that kind of money on a PC version just to try it out don't get it at all... even a few booster packs that give you essentially nothing unless you buy dozens of them will be more expensive than that. Measured on how much money you would spend eventually if you get Magic the price you would have to pay for the PC version to try it out is completely negligable. Its also not bad at all. I have some friends that have played Magic for a long time and they still enjoy the PC version.
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Gláucio Reis
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What do you folks think of duel decks? I have never played Magic, have absolutely no interest in deck construction, but am sometimes curious to give the game a try. It's probably not for me, anyway, as I usually dislike games with many different cards with lots of text, but the duel decks do entice me a bit.
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Bryan McNeely
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I've played Magic off and on since 3rd Edition and I think I am safe to say that though a person can play socially at home, the game is centered nowadays around tournament play. Rapid-fire expansions, set "blocks" and big-money cards at hobby shops have left a bad taste in my mouth for the game and it's sad considering how fun the game actually is to play.

If you must get into a CCG, go with Magic, but avoid tourneys unless you've no-one else to play with.

I have recently parted with my binders of cards for the sake of getting into Mage Wars Arena. I like the tactical sense of the game as well as the freedom of playing whatever card you like, whenever you like. I don't necessarily have to throw more money into the game to have a new experience each time I play, which I appreciate. It has replaced Magic for me.

I've heard the WoW CCG is now dead. Perhaps it's a good thing?

Non-Magic CCG's can be fun, though often try hard to emulate Magic's stranglehold on the genre. Vanguard seems interesting, but it mirrors Yu-Gi-Oh's battle style.

You have plenty of options, most coming down to how much expendable cash you have to spend on the hobby as it is an investment.

I'd go with what others have said and try the LCG route or give a board game a shot that emulates CCG's. Mage Wars is certainly good and Summoner Wars is probably a good one, too, though I've not tried it yet. It has expandable races/tribes to play and also utilizes a board for tactical play.
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Bryan McNeely
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GSReis wrote:
What do you folks think of duel decks? I have never played Magic, have absolutely no interest in deck construction, but am sometimes curious to give the game a try. It's probably not for me, anyway, as I usually dislike games with many different cards with lots of text, but the duel decks do entice me a bit.


When I first started playing Magic, rather that pre-constructed duel decks or theme decks, all that was available were boosters and "starter decks." Starter decks were nothing more than a few boosters thrown together in a little box, so the deck you'd buy is incredibly random with no synergy between cards.

Fast forward to today, what people can choose from to get into Magic is wholly more easy to do as they've taken the deck "building" out of it and instead opted for "intentional" decks, as I'd call them. The duel decks are designed for balanced play between two people, typically centered around a mechanism or just a battle between Planeswalkers.

It's nice if you plan on not sinking a lot of money into the game. You're essentially buying two pre-made decks that are fairly equal to one another, so you and your opponent shouldn't necessarily feel the need to upgrade (though you most certainly can... $$$)

Magic has surely gotten more complex in its text through how varied the powers and effects have become over the years. I think if one hasn't gotten into the game prior to now, the learning curve is monstrous. The duel decks, however, should remedy this to a degree as they are intended for new or intermediate players to get into. It's just that buying boosters and/or singles will surely up the complexity depending on what you obtain or decide to purchase outright. (Magic may be THE game that punishes new players the most when playing against seasoned veterans. The game is centered around them more than casual players.)

It's easy to go down to the FLGS and see box upon box of different Magic sets and go hog wild with buying up boosters. There is fun in opening them and finding expensive rares, but take it from me, that's instant gratification personified and your wallet will eventually learn to hate you for it!

If possible, buy the duel decks, have fun and never buy a booster ever. lol
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Cyrus the Great
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Kelanen wrote:
Renaissance Man wrote:
pppalma wrote:

An average for a competitive mtg deck is over u$1.000 or u$1.550 easily.

That is an exaggeration. Almost any Standard (by far the most played Constructed format) deck will be less than $300-400, and there are many competitive ones for under $150. Even in Modern, the only other really popular constructed format, a good deck will only be around $600.


No, the first estimate was closer.

The problem is that even if something remains the best deck, it evolves through a set, usually changes each set, and almost always each block.

Renaissance Man wrote:

Only in Legacy or Vintage do decks approach $1,000.


Umm...? You really have no clue...

I have easily a dozen cards worth over $1k EACH in vintage, without going into all the dual lands, workshops, mana drains, and other stuff.

Now my cards are all beta rather than unlimited (which pushes the price up) but of the many, many vintage decks I've played (up to #3 in the nationals) few come in at under $10-15k. There's the occasional cheap build comes up, never the best, but able to compete for a season sometimes, but mostly you are looking at a very expensive format.


Vintage (and much of Legacy) is absolutely more than $1,000. I played with a friend's Vintage deck not long ago that was probably worth 10K. I was just saying that Legacy and Vintage are the only formats where average cost is more than $1000. To say that an average competitive deck in any format costs $1000-$1500 is rubbish.
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Ahmed Alabbasi
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Occupy Boardwalk wrote:
I've played Magic off and on since 3rd Edition and I think I am safe to say that though a person can play socially at home, the game is centered nowadays around tournament play. Rapid-fire expansions, set "blocks" and big-money cards at hobby shops have left a bad taste in my mouth for the game and it's sad considering how fun the game actually is to play.

If you must get into a CCG, go with Magic, but avoid tourneys unless you've no-one else to play with.

I have recently parted with my binders of cards for the sake of getting into Mage Wars Arena. I like the tactical sense of the game as well as the freedom of playing whatever card you like, whenever you like. I don't necessarily have to throw more money into the game to have a new experience each time I play, which I appreciate. It has replaced Magic for me.

I've heard the WoW CCG is now dead. Perhaps it's a good thing?

Non-Magic CCG's can be fun, though often try hard to emulate Magic's stranglehold on the genre. Vanguard seems interesting, but it mirrors Yu-Gi-Oh's battle style.

You have plenty of options, most coming down to how much expendable cash you have to spend on the hobby as it is an investment.

I'd go with what others have said and try the LCG route or give a board game a shot that emulates CCG's. Mage Wars is certainly good and Summoner Wars is probably a good one, too, though I've not tried it yet. It has expandable races/tribes to play and also utilizes a board for tactical play.


I looked into these two games and they seem to be interesting enough to start with, but I have to admit that Jonathan sums it right

Kelanen wrote:
CCG's and LCG's are very different animals. Both are good for the right audience, but they are very different audiences.


even though I have never played MtG there is something very appealing about the game, I can tell that I will be hooked as Todd said

louper wrote:
dropping thousands on heroin (or whatever heroin costs) is a good sign that heroin is a great drug, if you're into that.


But I think the fact that I am living in Bahrain and here people hardly know anything about Board Games, RPGs, LCGs or CCGs. I play with a gaming group of my several close friends and family and that is it. Therefore Marius draws my attention to a valid point

Sciurus wrote:
the biggest constraint in my experience is to find dedicated opponents to play against. The interests of your potential opponents should thus be an important factor in your decision


I think if I ever returned to the States one day I should focus only in MgT but for the time being I guess it is more reasonable to start experimenting with LCGs.

Perhaps if I get back to the states I could run into some of you to properly teach me the hidden secrets of MgT
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Ahmed Alabbasi
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Renaissance Man wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
Renaissance Man wrote:
pppalma wrote:

An average for a competitive mtg deck is over u$1.000 or u$1.550 easily.

That is an exaggeration. Almost any Standard (by far the most played Constructed format) deck will be less than $300-400, and there are many competitive ones for under $150. Even in Modern, the only other really popular constructed format, a good deck will only be around $600.


No, the first estimate was closer.

The problem is that even if something remains the best deck, it evolves through a set, usually changes each set, and almost always each block.

Renaissance Man wrote:

Only in Legacy or Vintage do decks approach $1,000.


Umm...? You really have no clue...

I have easily a dozen cards worth over $1k EACH in vintage, without going into all the dual lands, workshops, mana drains, and other stuff.

Now my cards are all beta rather than unlimited (which pushes the price up) but of the many, many vintage decks I've played (up to #3 in the nationals) few come in at under $10-15k. There's the occasional cheap build comes up, never the best, but able to compete for a season sometimes, but mostly you are looking at a very expensive format.


Vintage (and much of Legacy) is absolutely more than $1,000. I played with a friend's Vintage deck not long ago that was probably worth 10K. I was just saying that Legacy and Vintage are the only formats where average cost is more than $1000. To say that an average competitive deck in any format costs $1000-$1500 is rubbish.


Would someone please explain to me what is Vintage and what is Legacy?? and why you have to pay this amount of money for such cards???
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Vintage and Legacy are kinds of Magic primary played with very old, very powerful, very rare, and therefore very expensive cards. 99% of Magic players (including me) don't play these formats, and there is no reason you need to.
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Ahmed Alabbasi
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Renaissance Man wrote:
Vintage and Legacy are kinds of Magic primary played with very old, very powerful, very rare, and therefore very expensive cards. 99% of Magic players (including me) don't play these formats, and there is no reason you need to.


Thanks for the info thumbsup
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AQ_5 wrote:
Would someone please explain to me what is Vintage and what is Legacy?? and why you have to pay this amount of money for such cards???
The way MtG works is that it churns out an impressive array of cards each year (500-1000 different cards). In tournaments not all card from all the years are allowed. The most popular "format" allows only cards from up to one year back (simplyfied). This keeps strategies changing and requires tournament players to continously buy new cards.

Vintage and Legacy basically allow you to use any card ever printed (with a few exceptions). This creates a staggering amount of possible combinations resulting in some especially powerful decks that play of very specific rare and out of print cards.

Now in either format you can just try to compete with the cards you get through regular buys and the occasional trade. But more fanatic players will go out and buy individual cards from the market to build very specific decks. That's how these decks are valued.

AQ_5 wrote:
I love gaming but I don't think that I will invest much in the cards as there are not a lot of gamers to play against here in my region, therefore it will be useless from me to build a good deck from those rare cards that cost a lot.
This is setting of huge warning bells in my head. I've played numerous CCG's without ever managing to get a community up and running for them. Before you go out and buy cards you really should investigate the community. Without a healthy community to play with any purchase is pointless. Please trust me on this!

As for the suggestion that you can have fun just by playing with commons and uncommons: That may be true. But again it requires having other people who are content to play at that level. If you only have a competitive tournament scene in your area, I fear not many will be interested to play against your C/UC only decks as they will provide no challenge to them.

As for which game to choose, I agree that MtG is *probably* your best bet for finding an active community in your area because it's just such a well established game. There are however no guarantees and just could live in a place where MtG is unknown and every one plays some other CCG instead. Do your research!
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AQ_5 wrote:
Occupy Boardwalk wrote:
I've played Magic off and on since 3rd Edition and I think I am safe to say that though a person can play socially at home, the game is centered nowadays around tournament play. Rapid-fire expansions, set "blocks" and big-money cards at hobby shops have left a bad taste in my mouth for the game and it's sad considering how fun the game actually is to play.

If you must get into a CCG, go with Magic, but avoid tourneys unless you've no-one else to play with.

I have recently parted with my binders of cards for the sake of getting into Mage Wars Arena. I like the tactical sense of the game as well as the freedom of playing whatever card you like, whenever you like. I don't necessarily have to throw more money into the game to have a new experience each time I play, which I appreciate. It has replaced Magic for me.

I've heard the WoW CCG is now dead. Perhaps it's a good thing?

Non-Magic CCG's can be fun, though often try hard to emulate Magic's stranglehold on the genre. Vanguard seems interesting, but it mirrors Yu-Gi-Oh's battle style.

You have plenty of options, most coming down to how much expendable cash you have to spend on the hobby as it is an investment.

I'd go with what others have said and try the LCG route or give a board game a shot that emulates CCG's. Mage Wars is certainly good and Summoner Wars is probably a good one, too, though I've not tried it yet. It has expandable races/tribes to play and also utilizes a board for tactical play.


I looked into these two games and they seem to be interesting enough to start with, but I have to admit that Jonathan sums it right

Kelanen wrote:
CCG's and LCG's are very different animals. Both are good for the right audience, but they are very different audiences.


even though I have never played MtG there is something very appealing about the game, I can tell that I will be hooked as Todd said

louper wrote:
dropping thousands on heroin (or whatever heroin costs) is a good sign that heroin is a great drug, if you're into that.


But I think the fact that I am living in Bahrain and here people hardly know anything about Board Games, RPGs, LCGs or CCGs. I play with a gaming group of my several close friends and family and that is it. Therefore Marius draws my attention to a valid point

Sciurus wrote:
the biggest constraint in my experience is to find dedicated opponents to play against. The interests of your potential opponents should thus be an important factor in your decision


I think if I ever returned to the States one day I should focus only in MgT but for the time being I guess it is more reasonable to start experimenting with LCGs.

Perhaps if I get back to the states I could run into some of you to properly teach me the hidden secrets of MgT


Sound enough logic. One thing I will say, though, is that it's pretty easy to get thousands of common or uncommon cards for ten or fifteen dollars, and then you'll have a substantial pool that you and your friends can draw from.

At the beginning, (supposedly) Magic was not intended to work the way it does now--you'd buy a certain number of cards, duel other players (for cards, no less), and you'd maybe even be seeing new cards every time you'd play a new opponent. It's not designed that way now, but there's no reason you couldn't operate with that spirit, in an entirely "closed" environment. Get a bunch of cards, you and your friends play with what you have, and then maybe buy a new pack or two and surprise each other.
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