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The goal of this thread is to keep track of all the units for Attack Wing, what their actual scales are, how they look on the table, what their canonical scale is supposed to be, and what options exist for folks who want to for whatever reason substitute other miniatures (or even cardboard counters) for the official Attack Wing ones.

What this thread is not supposed to be is a discussion about model quality or the scale decisions that WizKids made, and why or why not that's a good or bad idea, or what the company's motivations might have been. There's plenty of other threads in the forum covering that...
**************UPDATED****************
Ok, so let's look at the stats:




How to understand this chart:
1. The ships and their "actual size" is on the left.
2. Following that are three columns which list how big a ship of that "actual" size should be in mm at three different reference scales - 1/9000, 1/7000, and 1/5000. These reference scales are color coded (ignore the bold formatting for now they are out of date and missleading - just look at the number).
3. Then you have two sets of columns which list the model size for Attack Wing / Hero Clix Tactics and Micro Machines. These sets of columns show the miniatures size and the miniature's scale (to the nearest 1/100). The miniature's scale is color coded to correspond to the nearest of the reference scales.
4. Finally at the bottom I have a personal proposal for a relative scaling system that breaks ranges of "actual" sizes to ranges of miniature scales. I have mapped these actual size buckets onto the colors of the "actual" size column. If you look at the colors in the "actual" column and compare them to the color in the MicroMachine or Attack Wing column you can see how closely the two miniatures conform to my personal proposed scaling system. Of course if you just want to use an absolute scale in you games you just need to pick which color is closest to your desired scale and look and see if a miniature is available in that color.

Here's an example of what you can do using this chart - my personal relative scale Federation fleet:

Five generations of Federation starships!


Three generations of Enterprise.

New Observations:
H) Wiz Kids actually has a very reasonable relative scaling system going on with the majority of their models. Big ships tend to be bigger than medium ships, etc. In fact there are only three deviations in the whole first wave: TOS Enterprise, the Galor, and the Breen ship! In all three cases the ships are one bucket smaller than you would desire - which means the ships are smaller than desirable. In the case of the Galor the size difference is about a cm and not that noticeable, but in the case of the Breen ship and the Enterprise the difference is closer to 2cm or 1/3 the length. With a spindly design like the Enterprise (as opposed to the more volumetric Breen ship) this scale discrepancy really stands out - hence the "Enterprise earring effect".

Previous Observations:

A) First off the big surprise for me was that the TOS Enterprise and the Excelsior from HeroClix Tactics are actually going to be pretty close to scale with each other!

B) Second was that the TOS Enterprise and the TNG Enterprise actually need an even bigger size difference between them to be in scale!

C) Finally, and perhaps most usefully, none of the ships are in the popular FASA 1/7000 scale, though many are close. However 1/5000 seems like a really good scale to aim for if you want to do 3D printed models!

D) The Defiant would be silly small at close to the right scale, even at 1/5000. However the size of the Attack Wing model unfortunately is the same size as the Reliant. A model that's a little bit smaller (say close to the TOS Enterprise model size) would capture the right feeling of the Defiant while still being big enough to play with and have enough detail to really appreciate. At that size it would still actually have a lot more detail than the TOS Enterprise.

E) As the series progress ships tend to get larger, and with the exception of the Defiant and the TOS Enterprise it seems like there's reasonable scale progression of TOS & Early Movie era craft at 1/5000. Excelsior at 1/7000, and TNG craft at 1/9000. The Vor'Cha violates this, but it retains relative model size differences with the earlier and later ships and so actually works out just fine IMO.

F) An Ambassador at 1/9000 would look awesome on the table and would sit very nicely against both the Excelsior and Galaxy!!!!

G) I now have enough info to make me confident that I want to invest in 3D printed TOS and Movie era ships at 1/5000 scale. I'll have to see how the Micro Machines pan out - it looks like their Constitution II is actually a bit too large.

I plan on updating this as more ships are released, as well as scales for the Micromachines (if folks can give me their measurements or as mine arrive). Finally I'll try and record for specific scales if I know of models miniatures, or 3D prints that are available of that ships (still thinking about how to format that).

Pictures!:

Micro Machines


Paired with other 1/5000 class Attack Wing Models


1/8800 Galaxy with 1/7700 Enterprise


1/8800 Galaxy with 1/3800 Enterprise


1/3500 Bird of Prey with 1/9000 Valdore

Appendix:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"Actual size" m 1/9000 mm 1/7000 mm 1/5000 mm AW mm Approx scale
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Federation
Constitution I 289 32 41 58 38 1/7700
Constitution II 305 34 44 61 63 1/4900
Reliant 243 27 35 49 55 1/4400
Excelsior 467 52 67 93 63 1/7500
Ambassador 526 58 75 105 n/a n/a
Galaxy 643 71 92 129 73 1/8800
Defiant 120 13 17 24 55 1/2200
Intrepid 344 38 49 69 64 1/5400

Klingon
K-Tinga 349 39 50 70 65 1/5400
Vor Cha 481 53 69 96 65 1/7400
Negh Var 682 76 97 136 76 1/9000


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Very Interesting. Looking forward to when you get the rest of your ships and update this thread.

Thanks!
 
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Very cool!

Just out of giant-nerd curiosity, what are you using for reference for the "actual sizes"? I know many of the sources, er, politely contradict each other.
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I still don't understand why exact scale in this game is so important.

Myself, I'm all for the models being closer in size to one another—and good-looking—but so long as the Galaxy is bigger than the Excelsior is bigger than the Enterprise/Constitution, etc., I'm okay with discrepancies in scale.
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capnginger wrote:
Very cool!

Just out of giant-nerd curiosity, what are you using for reference for the "actual sizes"? I know many of the sources, er, politely contradict each other. ;)

I'm not too picky about this stuff so I'm just using the ex-astris-scientia.org charts as an easy one stop refference. I suppose now that I've got the spreadsheet set up I should actually investigate more about the sources huh?
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BradyLS wrote:
I still don't understand why exact scale in this game is so important.

Myself, I'm all for the models being closer in size to one another—and good-looking—but so long as the Galaxy is bigger than the Excelsior is bigger than the Enterprise/Constitution, etc., I'm okay with discrepancies in scale.

Exact scale is *not* important. But rational scale is (for me at least). I'd like ships that are roughly the same size to be roughly the same size in their models, even as I embrace the idea of a nonlinear scale as ships grow larger and smaller so that the game remains playable with one size of base.

Thus my plan to invest in 1/9000 and 1/5000 models to normalize discrepancies (and likely to invest in a 1/3500 Defiant).
 
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I collected the Micro Machines ships when they were originally in stores and own most of them. I'll see if I can help you out by measuring them and posting the measurements in my free time.
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I think worrying a lot about precision in the scale is kind of pointless. As far as scale goes, both in this and in X-wing, where the scale of the ships is a big selling point, even if the models are to scale the space they're moving through is not. To get a sense of that, think about the speeds these would be going and the rough size of the turning arc of a bicycle or race car relative to it's actual length. Having fighters to scale makes more sense for Star Wars since they're comparable, the dogfight represented automatically makes it more doable, and because we almost always see the ships with some sort of human for reference at some point.

In Star Trek in particular, the distance between the ships when they interact is often quite variable, sometimes engaging each other from hundreds of thousands of kilometers, most often nose-to-nose in order to get a nice dramatic shot that looks good on a 4:3 television. So some sense of relative size is nice. I do wish the D'deridex was bigger and I replaced the ridiculous tiny TOS Enterprise. But really, any sort of precision in terms of scale is already beside the point, because our minis are like symbols representing the ships and what we want is for them to look good next to each other. And I sure doubt anyone is upset about the planet token being out of scale....

*edit* I was mostly looking at the numbers and missed part of what you said, so sounds like we're pretty much in agreement!
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Ok, these are the Micro Machines miniatures I have that are most closely analogous to the Attack Wing ships available on release. I'll measure more of my collection later on.

These were all measured with a 12"/34mm metal ruler measuring from the forward-most point of the model to the rearward-most point of the model.

D'Deridex class -- 69mm
Vor'Cha class -- 64mm
Galaxy class -- 62mm
D-7 class -- 67mm
Galor class -- 75mm
Miranda class -- 64mm
Constitution class -- 76mm
Negh'Var class variant (TNG: All Good Things) -- 58mm (54mm for regular Negh'Var on same scale)
Romulan scout vessel (similar to Romulan science vessel) -- 52mm

I don't know if Micro Machines made the Breen ship and I'm almost certain they never made a Valdore class ship.

Also, the Negh'Var variant model is the unnamed class of "futuristic" Klingon ships seen in the TNG series finale "All Good Things", which aired before the the first Negh'Var class ship was actually introduced on DS9. It's essentially the same model except for a narrow piece protruding out the front tip of the ship.
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
I think worrying a lot about precision in the scale is kind of pointless. [...]

AdorableRocket wrote:
Exact scale is *not* important. But rational scale is (for me at least). I'd like ships that are roughly the same size to be roughly the same size in their models, even as I embrace the idea of a nonlinear scale as ships grow larger and smaller so that the game remains playable with one size of base.

Thus my plan to invest in 1/9000 and 1/5000 models to normalize discrepancies (and likely to invest in a 1/3500 Defiant).
 
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Mr_Tricorder wrote:
Ok, these are the Micro Machines miniatures I have that are most closely analogous to the Attack Wing ships available on release. I'll measure more of my collection later on.[...]

Cool, thanks! I'll definately use this later today and update my charts!
 
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What's the source for the "actual size"? I've heard there are lots of different "actual sizes"!

Cool thread btw.

edit: oops, already been asked. had this window open too long before I posted this!!
 
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Here are a few more Micro Machines measurements that match up with the ships what should be coming out in the next wave of ships and the Dominion War OP.

Excelsior class -- 84mm
Defiant class -- 57mm
Klingon Bird of Prey (wings-down model) -- 45mm
Jem'Hadar attack ship -- 46mm
Keldon class -- 76mm
Nebula class -- 50mm
Ferengi marauder -- 42mm
Deep Space 9 -- 58mm (diameter)
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Very nice work - I'd be interested in seeing which models you 3D print in 1/5000 & 1/9000 scale and how they turned out.

Any particular reason you are not going to go with the 1/7000 scale instead of the 1/5000?

Really wish they would have done some sort of scaling based on era at least - but, it doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game. Though, I will enjoy it more once I pick up some of my favorite ships in a consistent scale
 
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Great idea for a thread. I might do some 3d-printing when my printer arrives, so this kind of discussion is relevant to my interests!

I'll just add this image, which is the ships released so far to scale with each others with the information I could find. 1 pixel = 1 meter.

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JustinKase wrote:
Very nice work - I'd be interested in seeing which models you 3D print in 1/5000 & 1/9000 scale and how they turned out.

Any particular reason you are not going to go with the 1/7000 scale instead of the 1/5000?

Good question. I suppose I could invest in 1/7000 just about as easily.

I chose 1/5000 because I'm not invested in any scale other than the wave 1 attack wing and a few MicroMachines that are in the mail so it's kind of a conservation of effort thing. Shapeways seems to have a lot of 1/5000 scaled stuff already also.
 
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Sindre wrote:
Great idea for a thread. I might do some 3d-printing when my printer arrives, so this kind of discussion is relevant to my interests!

I'll just add this image, which is the ships released so far to scale with each others with the information I could find. 1 pixel = 1 meter.


Thanks for adding this! I kinda want to print this out at 1/9000, 1/7000, and 1/5000 and use it as backdrop for photographing the specific models. Do you have the file at higher resolution or in vector format?
 
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Mr_Tricorder wrote:
Ok, these are the Micro Machines miniatures I have that are most closely analogous to the Attack Wing ships available on release. I'll measure more of my collection later on.
[...]

Thanks again, this was super interesting! I've plugged all the numbers into my spreadsheet, but thanks to the BBCode formatting it's going to take a little more effort to update my chart in a meaningful way.

I do have a few takeaways though:
- The Micromachines have a far greater variation of scale than Attack Wing, they really have no sense of relative scale and just try to make everything roughly the same size.. You can see a pattern in the scaling of the Attack Wing ships (with an upper bound based on the blister pack) and only the TOS Enterprise really breaks the pattern.

- The Micromachine Constitution I is actually closer to 1/3800, and according to these numbers almost a 10mm longer than the scale of the Tactics Miranda and Constitution II (refit Enterprise). This bums me out a bit since I bought three of them on eBay. Oh well, at least I got the classic Romulans in those packs!

- The Excelsior at 1/5500 is a nice relative scale to the TOS and Movie era ships, bigger than the Attack Wing one, but still scaled to a manageable size. I wouldn't play it with TNG ships however since it'll dwarf even the Attack Wing Galaxy class.

- The Defiant is even larger than the Tactics one, and I think even less to my taste.
 
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For chart/spreadsheet work on systems like BGG, I find it easier to format it all in Excel (or whatever) and then take a screen/window shot. Then edit it to just show what I want.

Saves time and headaches
 
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Yeah I've got it in a Google Docs Spreadsheet. I could also insert a screenshot I suppose...
 
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I'll just put this out there again, here are some of the problems with doing the ships at "true scale".

There is no single precise and accepted "real size" for all the scale sizes being used. The Starship Enterprise used is roughly half the size of the Enterprise D. Your sources say it should be even smaller. But, I've seen sources that show it should in fact be bigger. So, three different sources, showing three different sizes, and all just as accurate because the whole thing is based on science fiction. This means, as I've said before, "true scale" doesn't exist, and the scaling in this game will never please everyone he even cares about scale.

Do we really want everything to exact scale? Do we want a D'deridex twice the size of the Enterprise D? Do we want a Defiant the size of a pinto bean? This is a miniatures based game, and half the fun is having attractive little miniatures to play with/display on he table top. This can easily be confirmed by the vast numbers of post discussing the bad paint jobs, how o fix the bad paint jobs, and the inaccuracies of the models themselves (I'm looking at you D7).

So, since the scale people will never be happy, why didn't they just try to make the gaming/display people happy, and just go by the Fleet Captains scale? Just throw it out the window, make the ships big enough to enjoy, make the big ships bigger than the medium ships, which would be bigger than the small ships. And, instead, focus on just making them look as good as you can instead.
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coastcityo wrote:
... Do we really want everything to exact scale? ...

I don't know about We, but I would have liked it

Even with the Pinto Bean sized Defiant (and Birds of Prey)

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv298/riddick20089/101_02...

That is a personal preference - not a requirement for enjoyment of the game.


..and yes, that D7 is just an embarrassment. Why that mold wasn't broken/recast when they first noticed the issue with Clix is beyond me.
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Nicholas Bazzano
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I'm one of those DS9 fans, and I don't want a pinto bean sized Defiant. So, if they're going to do it to exact scale, I demon they scale from the Defiant, and make the Defiant as big as the current Galaxy class. I can't wait to see the new full scale D'deridex, Jem'hadar battleship, and Borg cube.
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coastcityo wrote:
... make the ships big enough to enjoy, make the big ships bigger than the medium ships, which would be bigger than the small ships.

The whole point of this thread is *not* to obsess over one scale strategy versus another, but rather to provide enough information that everyone can see the trade offs, chose whatever they prefer, and be informed in how they go about building a fleet that meets their preference.

If you prefer not to worry about any scale at all, then this thread is completely useless to you and you are free to ignore it.

If you prefer all your ships to show maximum detail and be as large as possible while on the stand, then you can use this thread to find a replacement for your TOS Enterprise, Defiant, or Romulan Science Vessel that will satisfy you.

If you want everything strictly to one scale, then you can use this thread to find models for that.

Finally if you just want to "make the big ships bigger than the medium ships, which would be bigger than the small ships," then you can use this thread as a guide to do something like 1/9000 for ships larger 500m, 1/7000 for ships between 500m-350m, 1/5000 for ships 350m-200m and 1/3500 for ships smaller than 200m.
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adorablerocket wrote:
Sindre wrote:
Great idea for a thread. I might do some 3d-printing when my printer arrives, so this kind of discussion is relevant to my interests!

I'll just add this image, which is the ships released so far to scale with each others with the information I could find. 1 pixel = 1 meter.


Thanks for adding this! I kinda want to print this out at 1/9000, 1/7000, and 1/5000 and use it as backdrop for photographing the specific models. Do you have the file at higher resolution or in vector format?

No, sorry. i just put that together with what I had and could find on google.
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