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Subject: Cowering Effects question rss

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Mark Humphries
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Let's say we have an MMC that posseses a MG, and I intend to fire each separately.

I understand that if the MMC fires inherent FP first and ends up cowering, both the MMC and the MG will be marked with either a Prep Fire marker (PFPh) or a Final Fire marker (Enemy MPh or DFPh) and therefore be unable to fire.

What happens if the MG fires first and ends up cowering? Is the possessing MMC affected?

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Chris van Wyk
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Hi Mark,

Unfortunately the answer is yes. Cowering affects the unit handling the SW and not the SW. Therefore the unit gets marked with a Final Fire / Prep Fire counter.

Chris
 
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Peter Vrabel
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Hmm. The rulebook says,and I quote, "Whenever a non-leader directed MMC attack rolls doubles...."
Which implies that a MG firing on its own doesn't cower.
It then goes on to state that the firing unit is marked with a final/prep fire counter.

However th SW rules section (4) states that a unit can fire a SW, rather than a SW is fired, which seems to imply that if a unit fires a SW, then it is counted to have fired itself fro the purpose of cowering. Maybe.
 
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Jay Richardson
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Peter Vrabel wrote:
Which implies that a MG firing on its own doesn't cower.

But a MG cannot fire on its own... when a MG fires, the MMC that possesses it is also firing, even if it is not using its inherent FP.

For instance: assume that a squad with a MG fires the MG in the PFPh and that the MG retains its ROF... and then the MG ceases firing, and the squad itself never fires using its inherent FP. Many players would not place a Prep Fire marker on either the squad or the MG at this point, because neither has yet exhausted all of its possible shots.

But at the conclusion of that PFPh, BOTH the squad and the MG would be marked with a Prep Fire counter, because BOTH had fired during the phase. (In actual practice, a single Prep Fire counter is placed on both of them, as that is sufficient for all game purposes, but technically speaking they both should be marked separately.)

This gets confusing when you consider a squad that has fired, and is marked with a Prep Fire or Final Fire marker, but its MG continues to shoot because it has retained its ROF. The natural assumption of many players is that such a squad is no longer firing... but the fire marker simply indicates that the squad has exhausted all of the available shots for its inherent FP. When its MG retains ROF and continues to shoot, it is the PF/FF marked squad that is actually firing the MG.

Thus a cower result – regardless of whether it occurs during the use of a MMC's inherent FP or during the use of a MG in a separate attack – always affects both the MMC and any SW it possesses: they are all marked with either a Prep Fire or Final Fire marker.

The Starter Kit rules are not real clear on this, although they do imply it: SW are NOT listed as being unaffected by cowering. You also have to assume that a MMC firing only a MG also counts as a MMC attack; this is not specifically stated anywhere and, as I tried to show above, it is easy to assume otherwise.

All of this is primarily another problem in condensing a huge rulebook down to a tiny one. The full ASL rules clearly state that cowering affects a unit and all of its SW, even if the unit's inherent FP was not used.
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Mark Humphries
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Jay, they should find a way to stuff you into every ASLSK box.
I'll add this clarification to the reminder list thread.

Thanks guys.
 
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Lehr
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I hope this subject gets cleared up in future printings on the SKs.
******************************************************************

Quote:
This gets confusing when you consider a squad that has fired, and is marked with a Prep Fire or Final Fire marker, but its MG continues to shoot because it has retained its ROF.

I have been under the impression that whenever a squad is marked with a Final Fire marker all its weapons are also marked with a Final Fire marker and vice versa. Am I correct?

In other words an MG can not maintain ROF if the squad possessing it receives a FF marker because it will also be marked with a FF marker. Have I been playing it wrong?

Quote:
Thus a cower result – regardless of whether it occurs during the use of a MMC's inherent FP or during the use of a MG in a separate attack – always affects both the MMC and any SW it possesses: they are all marked with either a Prep Fire or Final Fire marker.

I like nice, clear sentences like this.

 
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Jay Richardson
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Larry Davidson wrote:
I have been under the impression that whenever a squad is marked with a Final Fire marker all its weapons are also marked with a Final Fire marker and vice versa. Am I correct?

No... sometimes it works this way, and sometimes it doesn't, so it is easy to get confused!

Larry Davidson wrote:
In other words an MG can not maintain ROF if the squad possessing it receives a FF marker because it will also be marked with a FF marker. Have I been playing it wrong?

Yes.

Here are some examples that may help with both of these questions:

Assume that a squad fires both its inherent FP and a MG at a target...

* If a cower result occurs, both the squad and the MG are marked with a fire marker (Prep Fire or Final Fire, as appropriate).

* If the MG loses its ROF, both the squad and the MG are marked with a fire marker.

* If the MG retains its ROF, the squad is marked with a fire marker, but the MG is NOT – so the MG can continue to fire, even though the squad is done.

This is a bit of a paradox: the squad can't fire (inherent FP) but it can fire (MG)... at the same time. And the fact that the squad has a fire marker on it does not affect its ability to continue to fire its MG at all, even though it is perfectly natural to think that it would.

If the squad/MG combination fires at moving attacking units during the attacker's MPh, then many other possible situations may arise, which are too complex to discuss here. See my other post: "Explanation of ROF (and Defensive Fire)" for more information.
 
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Mark Humphries
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>If the MG loses its ROF, both the squad and the MG are marked with a fire marker

This applies to the PFPh and MPh, but not the DFPh. Correct? zombie
 
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Chris van Wyk
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Hi Mark,

The same applies for the 1DF and the DFPh to an extent.

Remember though that with 1DF against moving units, you now have First Fire, Subsequent Fire and Final Protective Fire. Also a unit that has been marked with a First Fire marker in 1DF, i.e. only First Fired, may Final Defensive Fire in the DFPh against adjacent locations only.

For all of these your squad can fire its Inherent FP and/or use the MG.

However, your decision on using the squads FP and/or MG FP depend on the amount of MF spent entering the hex by the moving unit fired upon. You will not be able to split your attack into the squad’s FP and then the MG if the unit only spent 1MF, either use one or the other or combine it.

So what about ROF?

The way I’m reading the SK rulebook you are allowed ROF on your MG (SW) for each of the above. This however differs in the ASL Rulebook as a multiple ROF SW cannot be fired more than once during Subsequent First Fire and/or in the DFPh if already marked First Fire. The SW usage in this case is treated as Sustained Fire; B# lowered by 2 and FP halved as Area Fire.

I think the above fact is hinted at in the SK rulebook in “3.4 Defensive Fire Phase … (including MG that maintained ROF in the MPh).” This also means that I can “save” the ROF achieved in my First Fire to use in my DFPh and maybe achieve ROF again without penalties.

All the above attacks are however dependant on the squad not cowering. As soon as the squad cowers all other subsequent Defensive Fire possibilities are lost, including ROF, as the First Fire counter is flipped onto its Final Fire side.

Chris
 
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Jay Richardson
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Mark Humphries wrote:
>If the MG loses its ROF, both the squad and the MG are marked with a fire marker

This applies to the PFPh and MPh, but not the DFPh. Correct? zombie

No... it DOES apply to the DFPh: the squad is marked with a Final Fire, because inherent FP can only fire once, and the MG is also marked because the loss of ROF means that it cannot take any more shots.

It does not necessarily apply to the MPh (as I mentioned), because of the possible multiple shots allowed by First Fire / Subsequent First Fire / Final Protective Fire, which have very specific rules detailing when and how you mark units using these shots, as detailed in my other article. It also does not necessarily apply to the DFPh when the firing unit begins the DFPh already marked with a First Fire or Final Fire counter because it did use FF / SFF / FPF during the MPh.

I'm having a hard time understanding where this confusion is coming from. Let's try this approach: the DFPh is in many ways a mirror image of the PFPh; the attacker's units fire in the PFPh, and the defender's units fire in the DFPh in EXACTLY the same way... you simply mark them with a Final Fire marker instead of a Prep Fire marker. There are three exceptions to this general rule:

* Units that begin the DFPh already marked with a First Fire or Final Fire marker are restricted in what they can shoot at, or they can not shot at all, as described in the defensive fire rules.

* Ordnance Smoke is less effective when fired in the DFPh. This is either an artifact of the game system, or a conscious decision on the part of the designers to reduce the overall effectiveness of ordnance Smoke... I'm not sure which. The ASL rulebook explains this by claiming that the DFPh is "reactive" as opposed to the PFPh being "planned" – that is, defensive fire is supposedly less effective than prep fire... an explanation that seems suspicious when you consider that almost every other attack is just as effective in the DFPh as it is in the PFPh.

* The use of Intensive Fire by Guns during the DFPh is restricted, while Guns firing in the PFPh can use Intensive Fire without restriction. This interpretation is not yet found in either the ASL or the ASLSK rules, but I'm pretty sure it will be added and made official.

Chris van Wyk wrote:
The way I’m reading the SK rulebook you are allowed ROF on your MG (SW) for each of the above. This however differs in the ASL Rulebook as a multiple ROF SW cannot be fired more than once during Subsequent First Fire and/or in the DFPh if already marked First Fire. The SW usage in this case is treated as Sustained Fire; B# lowered by 2 and FP halved as Area Fire.

I think the above fact is hinted at in the SK rulebook in "3.4 Defensive Fire Phase ... (including MG that maintained ROF in the MPh)." This also means that I can "save" the ROF achieved in my First Fire to use in my DFPh and maybe achieve ROF again without penalties.

Hmmm... and yet more confusion. But I think I understand the problem here.

Defensive fire works EXACTLY the same in the Starter Kits as it does in full ASL. While there are things that can occur in ASL that cannot occur in ASLSK, what does occur in ASLSK is exactly the same as ASL.

What ASL calls Sustained Fire is also present in ASLSK, and it works in exactly the same way. But ASLSK does not call it "Sustained Fire" and it is split up among three different rules:

* B# lowered by 2: see the last sentence of rule 4.1

* FP halved as Area Fire: see the 3rd paragraph of rule 3.3.1

* No ROF: see rule 1.2.4.1 (note that this rule was not present in the ASLSK #1 rules)

So, just as in ASL itself, you cannot retain ROF when using Subsequent First Fire or Final Protective Fire.

You are correct in that, if your MG retains ROF during First Fire, and does not use SFF or FPF, it can fire again during the DFPh and possibly retain ROF there as well.
 
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Mark Humphries
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>No... it DOES apply to the DFPh

My bad, I misread your earlier example. shake

Here's a follow up, just to make sure things are sinking in.

The crime scene: It's the DFPh and we have a MMC and MG stacked, neither has a First or Final Fire Marker yet.

- If the MG fires first and retains ROF but doesn't cower, neither unit gets a Final Fire marker.

- If the MG fires first and neither retains ROF nor cowers, only the MG gets a Final Fire marker.

- If the MG fires first and cowers, both the MG and the MMC get a Final Fire marker whether the MG retainss ROF or not

- If the MMC fires first but doesn't cower, only the MMC gets a Final Fire marker

- If the MMC fires first and cowers, both the MG and the MMC get a Final Fire marker

- If they fire as a FG and don't cower but the MG retains ROF, the MMC gets a Final Fire marker but the MG does not

- If they fire as a FG and cower, both the MG and the MMC get a Final Fire marker whether the MG retains ROF or not










 
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Chris van Wyk
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richfam wrote:

What ASL calls Sustained Fire is also present in ASLSK, and it works in exactly the same way. But ASLSK does not call it "Sustained Fire" and it is split up among three different rules:

* B# lowered by 2: see the last sentence of rule 4.1
* FP halved as Area Fire: see the 3rd paragraph of rule 3.3.1
* No ROF: see rule 1.2.4.1 (note that this rule was not present in the ASLSK #1 rules)

So, just as in ASL itself, you cannot retain ROF when using Subsequent First Fire or Final Protective Fire.


Hi Jay,

I agree with you on the above and was looking at the SK#1 RB when making the comment on ROF. I am think that this is why there may be confusion in terms of ROF and the DFPh and therefore the ASL RB explanation.

Chris
 
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Jay Richardson
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Mark:

Yes, that's it! You've got it right.

***

Chris:

I should have realized that you were just looking at the ASLSK #1 rules.

The ASLSK #2 rulebook takes precedence over the ASLSK #1 rulebook (page 2, 1st column, 2nd paragraph), so defensive fire should be played the same way in both games. Of course, players who don't have ASLSK #2 rulebook won't know this... unless they read this thread!
 
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Mark Humphries
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richfam wrote:
Mark:
Yes, that's it! You've got it right.


Thanks for lifting the fog Jay
 
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