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War of the Ring (First Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: suraman in a captured Orthanc rss

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Asger Garde
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What happens if a FP Army, captures orthanc? Is Saruman destroyed - as per normal rules - or does he remain isolated (as in the books) and thus keeps his dice

thanks, asger ;o)
 
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Philip Thomas
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If there were Shadow troops in Orthanc immediately prior to capture (so the capture followed from a battle) then Saruman is destroyed on the normal rules.

If there were no Shadow troops in Orthanc, Saruman survives.

(he can be killed by an Ents card though).

I think the dice represents more than his existence- Saruman's powers were broken once Gandalf snapped his staff, so he should lose the dice...
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Philip Thomas wrote:
I think the dice represents more than his existence- Saruman's powers were broken once Gandalf snapped his staff, so he should lose the dice...


But he doesn't.

Just to be clear, any Character (Companion or Minion) can exist in the same Region as an enemy Army. They are only killed (outside the Fellowship) if they were in an Army and it was destroyed by an enemy Army. So, any Character alone in a Stronghold would not be killed if it were captured by the enemy. Therefore, Saruman is not an exception to the rules (other that the fact that he can be killed by the FP playing an Ent card if there is no Shadow Army in Orthanc - but Event cards are exceptions anyway).

Hope this helps!
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah, sorry if that was unclear. I meant that the removal of the Saruman figure (and hence the loss of the dice), doesn't have to symbolise Saruman actually being killed.
 
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Douglas S
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One of only two house rules we play with is that Saruman is killed when Orthanc falls regardless of the presence or absence of friendly armies.


-Doug (original beta tester)
 
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Kevin Chapman
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What's the other one?
 
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Rev. David Moore
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Re: suraman Minion - not killed...
Dear Doug and Fellows,
'wierd' house-rule, since ALL other Minions DON'T get killed if they are just 'in' a region. Gandalf doesn't...the Witch King doesn't...heck, even 'Pip' doesn't - unless they are choosing to 'lead' the army. Then, Saruman - or any of the others - are 'killed' when being defeated with their army.
In the Trilogy, of course, Sauron stays up in his un-assailable tower - while his armies fight below without him. Smart! Sauron would/should do the same, afterall.
So its really the players choice: use his ''1' leadership and put him in a Siege (or Land War) with his troops; or 'forfeit' his 1 leadership and let him just let his 'Army' fight the battle. Afterall, he's not stupid - and what's the point of those cards that 'kill Saruman', if he's just killed without them?!?
 
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James Christopher
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Sifulama wrote:
So its really the players choice: use his ''1' leadership and put him in a Siege (or Land War) with his troops; or 'forfeit' his 1 leadership and let him just let his 'Army' fight the battle. Afterall, he's not stupid - and what's the point of those cards that 'kill Saruman', if he's just killed without them?!?


Of course, if Isengard is put under siege, Saruman has no choice - whenever any leader is in a region with troop, he is automatically considered to be leading them. If Isengard is taken through Siege combat, Saruman is always killed.
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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Sifulama wrote:
Dear Doug and Fellows, 'wierd' house-rule


Not really, though. Saruman became powerless after the fall of Orthanc by the Ents, which is covered in the game. However it can thematically be assumed that if Orthanc had fallen to a powerful Rohan army (especially one that is probably aided by Ent cards!) they could have locked him up inside the tower just as effectively as if they hadn't.

In fact remember it took the breaking of his staff by Gandalf to make Saruman ineffective. So if you wanted to really stick to the books, let Saruman keep his die until Orthanc is destroyed by the Ents, AND have Gandalf show up to do the breaking of the staff
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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jimchris wrote:
Of course, if Isengard is put under siege, Saruman has no choice - whenever any leader is in a region with troop, he is automatically considered to be leading them. If Isengard is taken through Siege combat, Saruman is always killed.


This is not true. A companion can always choose to decline fighting in a battle. HOWEVER, if the companion retreats into a fortress with his men then he has to be their leader. It is very possible to have Saruman's units retreat into Orthanc while he hides outside in the bushes. This does two things:

1. Prevents Saruman from entering Orthanc until the Free Peoples army leaves
2. Gurantees Saruman's die is always in use

Of course this can ALL be fixed by one simple house rule:

Saruman must be IN ORTHANC to use his die, since his power was derived from his Palantir and his staff, augmented by Orthanc. This means Orthanc must be Shadow Controlled and must contain no Free Peoples armies. If it does contain a Free Peoples army Saruman either has to retreat into Orthanc, thus forcing him to be a leader and to die with his troops, or he must sacrifice his die until the Free People are driven from Orthanc.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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BagpipeDan wrote:
jimchris wrote:
Of course, if Isengard is put under siege, Saruman has no choice - whenever any leader is in a region with troop, he is automatically considered to be leading them. If Isengard is taken through Siege combat, Saruman is always killed.


This is not true. A companion can always choose to decline fighting in a battle. HOWEVER, if the companion retreats into a fortress with his men then he has to be their leader. It is very possible to have Saruman's units retreat into Orthanc while he hides outside in the bushes.

JimChris is correct. A Companion may not "choose to decline fighting in a battle". A Companion, Minion or Nazgul is always considered to be part of an Army that it is in the same Region with. The only way they may avoid fighting is when the Army is attacking, by splitting the Army, attacking with only part of it and leaving the Companions/Minions/Nazgul in the rearguard.
 
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James Christopher
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What Krieghund said. IIRC, it is quite well explained in the rules; I don't have the book with me right now though.

Basically, allowing leaders to not take part in defence when their armies are attacked would make things way too good for the FP. Aragorn and Gandalf could never be trapped in strongholds (apart from last-round defence), and siege breaks would always fail to kill Witch-King and the Mouth.
 
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Peter Schott
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What happens if an isengart army retreats from orthanc to another region?
Can Saruman go with them? (I suppose not, since the rules say he must stay in Orthanc.)
Is he killed?
Or does he survive alone in Orthanc, waiting for an ent attack, even if Orthanc is now captured by the free people?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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pethulhu wrote:
What happens if an isengart army retreats from orthanc to another region?
Can Saruman go with them? (I suppose not, since the rules say he must stay in Orthanc.)
Is he killed?
Or does he survive alone in Orthanc, waiting for an ent attack, even if Orthanc is now captured by the free people?

Saruman would remain in Orthanc. Under these circumstances he could only be eliminated by the Ents. However, if a Shadow Army were to attack Orthanc and the FP Army were to retreat into Siege in Orthanc, Saruman would then become part of the besieging Army.
 
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