Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
8 Posts

Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Vichy Deactivation Question rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jersey Guys
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mb
Hello. We have some questions how to handle the French colonies once Vichy is deactivated.
Here is the situation: Vichy is inactive, with the Allies taking control of Paris in their half of the turn. On the ensuing Axis turn, a 2-5 Italian tank in Libya on the Tunisian border rolls up the Tunisian coast 5 hexes to Tunis/Bizerte. The Axis don't recapture Paris, so Vichy becomes deactivated.
By rule 49.41, the Vichy colonies are ``controlled by no one and may be acquired by the first power able to occupy all ports/cities within.''
Here are our questions:
Since the 2-5 tank is already in Tunis/Bizerte, does all of Tunis revert to Italian control? Or only the hex the 2-5 is on?
Can the 2-5 trace be supplied by land by Tripoli because it controls the hexes in between, or does it need to be supplied through the port until it recaptures those hexes?
And finally, would Italy get 5 BRPs at YSS for capturing Tunis?

Thanks as always for the quick replies.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Waste Water too
badge
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Assuming Tunisia was a Vichy colony at the time of collapse, it would now be an Italian conquest. The whole colony would be Italian.

But let's say the 2-5 was in Constantine instead. Then the hex and a line of hexes to either the nearest port to to supplied hex would be Italian and the rest would be uncontrolled. (24.23,26.5). So if Tunisia was also a colony, the Italian player could choose a 3 hex route to Tunis or Algiers. (Chose Tunis and Tunisia is conquered)

If it was Algiers instead, then it would only control that hex and it would need sea supply.

Italy would receive the BRPs during YSS.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
SewerStarFish wrote:
Assuming Tunisia was a Vichy colony at the time of collapse, it would now be an Italian conquest. The whole colony would be Italian....


I'm not sure I agree with this. My understanding is that the Italians moved in before Vichy deactivated. Thus moving through the hexes at that point would not change control to Italy, assuming they still belonged to Vichy (i.e. they were not occupied by the Allies at some point). Italy clearly controls the hex the armour unit occupies, but not the other hexes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Waste Water too
badge
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
deadkenny wrote:
SewerStarFish wrote:
Assuming Tunisia was a Vichy colony at the time of collapse, it would now be an Italian conquest. The whole colony would be Italian....


I'm not sure I agree with this. My understanding is that the Italians moved in before Vichy deactivated. Thus moving through the hexes at that point would not change control to Italy, assuming they still belonged to Vichy (i.e. they were not occupied by the Allies at some point). Italy clearly controls the hex the armour unit occupies, but not the other hexes.


I did miss stating that the "conquest" would not occur until the Italian conquest phase, apologies. Italy will control the hex, need sea supply to Tunis but at the end of the turn since Tunisia was a Vichy territory and as yet there has been no "initial conquest", it is then conquered by the Italians.

However the unit would be entitled to the shortest supply path to a port or friendly hex per 24.43 and 26.4
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I think part of our posts have been at cross purposes, as a result of the alternate scenarios you suggested and the less than specific direction of my response.

With regard to the specific situation in the OP. The Italian armour unit does not gain control of any of the hexes it moved through prior to deactivation of Vichy. It does immediately gain control of the hex it occupies upon deactivation. As that hex contains all of the cities in the colony of Tunisia, Italy gains control of the colony. IMHO 24.23 (I believe that was the case Patrick wanted to reference) would not give the Italians control of any additional hexes as they occupy a port. In other words 24.23 only gives you a potential supply route, consisting of the fewest possible hexes. You could not argue that tracing overland back to Tripoli is more convenient than providing sea supply to the port in order to gain control of additional hexes.

It's kinda moot in this case as occupation of that one hex gives you control of all of Tunisia, assuming 24.21 applies....

Questions: Does 24.21 apply? Does "conquest" of a deactivated Vichy colony count as "initial conquest"? Does 24.23 apply? It seems to be written in the context of an enemy initial conquest giving hex control to an enemy - and then provides a caveat such that supply is not cut off as a result. However, in this case the hexes are not becoming enemy controlled, they are becoming uncontrolled by anyone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Waste Water too
badge
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that a unit in Tunis could claim a line of hexes to Libya but I guess that conquest would not occur until after the next Axis turn.

But I think common sense dictates that in an alternate scenario where a unit is in any non-port hex, that the shortest line of hexes to a port or to a supplied hex would be able to claim the line. I don't think that the fall of Vichy was meant to so isolate a unit, say one in Constantine.

As an aside, there can be no sea transports to these neutral ports, only to ones actually controlled.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jersey Guys
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mb
It looks like Field Marshall Roe and I have stirred up a good bit of discussion on this issue. We always seem to blunder into at least one gray-area situation each game. Looking through the rules again, I'm now thinking that rule 49.9 would prevent Italy from claiming the BRPs (because the Allies haven't conquered Tunisia between the fall of Vichy and its capture by Italy).
I am also inclined to think that holding Bizerte/Tunis would give Italy control over all the Tunisian hexes by virtue of this phrase in rule 49.41: Each Vichy colony is controlled by no one and may be acquired by the first power able to occupy all ports/cities within.
That reads as if it would be akin to a first conquest, doesn't it, rather than a recapture? And if so, the DQB for rule 24.2 says that gaining control over the ports/cities does give you control over each hex.
Any more thoughts on this topic?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Waste Water too
badge
Mid-Atlantic Air Museum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I never read 49.9 that way, taking it to referring only to the colony while it was a "Vichy Colony".


But "never" is a strong word.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.