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Subject: [Deck Archetype] NEXT - Trying not to lose 66% of the time! rss

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Ony Moose
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So I saw the latest OCTGN stats showed NEXT not doing very well. So I thought I'd have a think about how to make best use of its ID. You gain a huge advantage for the first turn, and then it starts tailing off after that, so you need to be able to make long term advantage from your short term gain.

The theory of the deck is follows. All your agendas provide a long-term benefit (unless beta test decides to throw you under a bus, I need to test with jackson, but the inf is tight with only 12.)

Agendas
BetaTest - Your deck has a high % of ice, and so you are quite likley to gain benefit from this.
Gila Hands Arcology - If you score this you gain a nice econ boost. I did have more of these, but cut them down to squeeze in more ice.
PrioReq - Self explanetary, you have lots of big ice, this rezzes them for free!
Efficiency Committee - Provides free use of Melange, lets you install extra cards, wipe viruses for cheap. Scoring one of these is very helpful. If you IAA->AA you can then gain clicks afterwards which is helpful for an emergency virus wipe, or melange use for cash.

ICE
Your ICE falls into 3 types. Cheap, efficient and bloody expensive. The idea is you install the Cheap/Profit making ice on economy remotes/R&D and use PrioRez/Oversight AI /Efficiency Research to res the big ice. If you get a good start you'll be rich enough to hard-rez your Heimdall 2.0s and in that case you can save the Oversight/Efficiency for re-rezing following Shutdown. Your mid-range ICE are your Eli, Ichi and Roto. Ichi and Eli are very efficient cost wise, so you want them on your centrals normally while Roto is a surprise rez to snipe a program, so it works well on Archives or a remote. Eli and Ichi both cost at least 4C to break normally, and so are good at taxing the runner.

NEXT:Bronze is being used over Enigma as its cheaper to rez. You are often very tight on cash on the first turn, and so the 1C makes a difference. You want to be able to rez this on HQ, and then rez Shadow on R&D, say.

Economy
Your income comes from Eve, Adonis and Melange. If you get a good draw with 3 ICE then after your bonus draws and mandatory draws you have drawn 9 cards, which gives you a good chance of seeing one of these. Stick them in a remote behind some ICE and you'll have a good start. You have lost 1C a turn from not being EtF, so you need to get an Eve going ASAP to make up for it. If the runner is poor, throw them out naked to get the runner to either trash them (and bankrupt themselves) or ignore them and save you needing ice. You can always ice them the turn you rez them.


Discussion
I've tested it vs Kit (1 game each) and Noise (was very close, noise won on archives run on last turn before I would win.) and Gabriel (I won, after being R&D locked I managed to score a PrioRez which I'd had waiting in a remote being ignored for ages.)

If you get a good start you are a monster. With Shadow on R&D, Ice wall on HQ, Janus 1.0 on a remote for your opening start on your first turn you can use Hedge fund, OverSightAI Janus, install Eve/Melange/Adonis behind him. This puts you in a very powerful position. You want to score something quickly, otherwise you'll start falling behind. Make the runner feel like they are always playing catchup and your RotoTurret and Ichi will get surprise kills of programs.

The main danger is account siphon. This doesn't normally come on the first runner's turn as you have ice on HQ and other interesting things going on in remote servers for them to worry about. But it will come soon. If you have unrezzed Eve/Adonis you can rez them, otherwise you'll take a big hit, but more worryingly the runner gains 10C. This deck relies on keeping the runner poor while you get rich, its better to boost a trace on Shadow to bankrupt yourself than let the runner gain 10C, usually. You have no way to punish tags, except trashing resources. But do remember to trash resources if the runner stays tagged.

Its a fun deck to play, and I'll keep trying it out. I was hoping to encourage more people to take advantage of NEXT Design's benefit (which is having ice on R&D, HQ, a remote AND using Oversight/Efficiency to rez a Janus 1.0 and put an agenda/adonis in a remote and use hedge fund all in your opening turn!) Without the cards to rez big ice for cheap, this ID is junk, I think. But with them it can be pretty effective. It would be rolled over by E3 feedback, but less people seem to be playing them at the moment. Its quite good vs atman, since you never have a part of the game where your centrals aren't protected.

Anyway, this is the NEXT deck I've been using. The lack of Jackson hurts, but with only 12inf and wanting to keep a high ice ratio I can't really see what I'd cut for him. I might put some Ichi2.0 in instead of the ichi1.0, but people tend to double click the 1.0 anyway so all you are really gaining is the ability to Oversight them and 2 extra trace for a brain damage.


Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Android: Netrunner Deck Builder

Identity:
Next Design: Guarding the Net (Creation and Control)


Total Cards: (49)

Agenda: (9)
Accelerated Beta Test (Core) x3
Efficiency Committee (Creation and Control) x2
Gila Hands Arcology (Creation and Control) x1
Priority Requisition (Core) x3

Asset: (8)
Adonis Campaign (Core) x3
Eve Campaign (Humanity's Shadow) x2
Melange Mining Corp (Core) x3

ICE: (23)
Rototurret (Core) x3
Ichi 1.0 (Core) x2
Eli 1.0 (Future Proof) x3
Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) x2 ■
Shadow (Core) x2 ■
Ice Wall (Core) x2 ■
NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves) x3
Heimdall 2.0 (Creation and Control) x3
Janus 1.0 (What Lies Ahead) x3

Operation: (9)
Hedge Fund (Core) x3
Oversight AI (A Study in Static) x3 ■■
Bioroid Efficiency Research (Creation and Control) x3

Upgrade: (0)

Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 52
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 2
The Weyland Consortium: 10
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Steve Cates
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I run a similar deck, 23 ice. I think I lose most of the time on octgn getting agenda flooded. It's probably my fault the percentage is so low. Ihave a habit of drawing poorly.
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Ony Moose
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I was considering putting the Director in, since it would combo nicely with Melange, and let you score things out of hand as well as generally boost your economy and let you install more ICE. And you would be able to protect her early on, but she is another target. and losing 2 points to a trash with Whizzard/Imp/BankJob/AccountSiphon etc is going to hurt.
 
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Steve Cates
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Yeah, I have the director in my deck. It's great if you can build a solid ice wall early and crank out fast advance and melange. Downside, of course, is that it's a known 2 AP they can go after.
 
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Reckless Charlatan
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Just saw this on reddit. You're famous!
 
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Kasper Lauest
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I have a NEXT deck that I have played just a few times. I had lots of fun. When it works it REALLY works, but there are lots of weaknesses. I think adding Jackson Howard will almost definitely improve my deck.
 
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Fluff Da Sheep
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I've played something similar. Recurring Deus X really ruins your day. So does Inside Job / Emergency Shutdown.

Thoughts:
Jackson to fix botched ABTs.
Wall of Static instead of Eli because it actually stops people, and turns on your Rototurret / Ichi. Plus, you don't have 3 strength ICE yet anyway.
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Ony Moose
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recklesscharlatan wrote:
Just saw this on reddit. You're famous!


I notice he didn't post the video of our first match which I won That second one did come down to the wire though, I shouldn't have done the bluff with Heimdall, Heimdall Janus ->Adonis though. I thought he'd probably run for a game-winning agenda for 4 brain damage and his DeusX, but with R&DI out just hitting R&D is also an option. If I'd stuck my efficiency committee in my other server and advanced it once, and the adonis behind the Janus I might have won.

I'm thinking about taking out 1 OverSightAI(which breaks my heart as its my MVP) and 1 Eve Campaign and putting in 2 Jackson. The Jackson's will help recover from beta tests and recycle OversightAI/Ice back into R&D which will help, as well as give more draws.

Inside Job/Emergency Shutdown isn't too much of a problem, because you can just re-rez the ice with another ConditionOperation. You got to rez it for cheap, so using up 2 amazing events to derez it isn't too bad. And a derezzed Janus is still a threat, runner's won't run past it if you can rez it if they can't break it since they don't really want 4 brain damage! Its a good PrioReq target too if you haven't got anything better out.

I'm going to try running this deck as HB:EtF and see if it does any better. But should I use the extra 3 inf you gain as HB:EtF or just compare them as is?
 
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John Thornby
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I wouldn't expect this to do well against Noise because he's minimally interacting. NEXT is best against early game runners who are trying to sneak cheap early accesses and/or get into HQ to trigger all kinds of criminal shenanigans.

My personal take on NEXT is that it should be 45 cards with just over 50% ICE. You need a few things for NEXT to be successful:

1. A good enough ratio of ICE to give yourself a great mathematical chance at getting three in the opening (or mulligan) hand. You kinda have to do this since it's the only benefit your ID has.
2. You need to force the game into phase two early. This has been discussed in a number of threads on here and elsewhere. The runner owns the early and late game, the corp has a narrow window in the middle where his servers are "safe" until the runner is tooled up.

You need to get your agendas quickly, and score them before this window closes. In my opinion, therefore, you should slim down to 45 cards to increase your agenda concentration. The argument for 49 cards is getting weaker nowadays, especially so for NEXT.
Yes this means you can get agenda flooded and the runner has more chance to access an agenda, but in principle you have more ICE earlier so this should offset the negative.

I would drop all the bigger "scary" ICE - you really don't need it. Just play speed bumps that will make the runner go and find breakers. Then you can drop the oversight AIs and Bioroid Efficiency Research in favour of economy ops and Jackson Howard.

I would play SanSan. I know this swallows up at least half of your influence, but it's so worth it. If you're running a 45 card deck with 3 bonus draws from NEXT's ability, you can probably get away with only two of them.
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Ony Moose
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This does quite well against Noise because of the Oversight/Efficiency research. Noise decks often try to parasite down all of your ice, which both bankrupts you trying to re-rez them (Xanadu hurting), and lets him into your servers.

Janus at Str 8 from OversightAI takes a lot of Parasite/Suckers to kill, and so its well worth the 1C it cost you to rez him! The downside from OversightAI doesn't apply since none of the subs are ever broken, so you saved yourself 14C and you take up a parasite for a long time.

If all your ice is Str 1-3 small ETR ice you do great vs someone trying to find all their breakers, but against Noise who just parasites and datasuckers/surges them down you quickly find you have no ice. Your plan for NEXT to basically just be like any other HB:Rush deck would probably work OK, but you aren't gaining much over HB:EtF if you do it that way. I'll probably give it a go and see how it does. The scary ice is also good against Atman, since it forces installs at 8 or 7 which won't be useful for the weaker ice.
 
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John Thornby
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It kinda depends on the Noise build I think. Most are minimally interacting and aren't atucally that bothered about killing your ICE. They want to run once and win in one go, in which case they're happy to run through a Janus for a couple of brain damage.

The other thing I would factor in is that Noise will be on the decline for a while, due to the presence of Jackson Howard in the environment, so I wouldn't put too much stock into optimising vs. an ID that will be falling out of favour. I'd be way more concerned about beating criminals and aggressive shapers.

I appreciate the anti Atman/Sucker value of the larger ICE, but it feels kinda combo-ey. If the ICE comes out first it's basically dead until the operation comes up or you score a Priority Req; and the other way around your operations are wasted until you draw favourably.

If you can't use all the ICE you install with the NEXT ability then it's essentially wasted, so my feeling is that these decks should be small ICE and economy ops. If you're married to the idea of the bigger ICE then I'd still trim down to 45 cards. You increase the concentration of the things you want by doing so and give yourself a better chance at pulling agendas.

You make phase 2 longer by closing down servers early - the usual Account Siphon, Bank Job, Desperado, Dirty Laundry tricks don't work if they can't make successful runs; which means the corp has more money and the runner has to make theirs stretch further to find, install and use icebreakers. If the ICE you're playing is unrezzable then you give up this edge in the hopes of an advantage in the long-term, but the problem is you can have already lost in the short-term if you can't keep the runner under control early.
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Ony Moose
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You actually have a really really good chance of having a big ice and an operation to rez it on your first turn.

If your staring hand is 3 ice, you see 9 cards at the start of your first turn.

With 6 operations you then have a 73% chance of having 1+, and a 73% chance of having 1+ large ice. So a ~50% chance of having one of each on your opening turn (maybe more by the time you correct for having 1 increasing chance of other.) If you don't have one in your starting hand, you'll draw one pretty quickly normally.

Getting a Janus/Heimdall in your starting hand is great, because you can stick it on a remote and leave it there until you draw the rezzing operation or score a prioReq. You get to install it click free and draw a replacement card!

With 23 ice in a 49 card deck you have a 79% chance of having 2+ ice, and a 44% chance of having 3+. You mulligan anything with less than 2 ice.
 
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Arto H
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I have been tinkering with NEXT also but have a bit different approach. It might be because I think Oversight AI and Bioroid Efficiency Research loses too much against Deus X (which I see in every Katman) and Faerie (which is quite common in criminal). I would try to play more with this kind of NEXT deck if meta would change a little

I like the deck but I feel it might be bit uncertain but haven't test it. You have 23 ICE in which 2 Ichi's you don't want to see early. Heimdall/Janus needs the operation so need 2 cards. Also Roto is too expensive as only ETR during first turns. I feel the deck might not get explosive start so often. You will get ICE but might too broke after first rezzes. Or wrong selection of ICE and no right operations etc.

My best NEXT decks have been 45 cards and I would try to slim that deck also. Cutting some 1-3 assets, 1 operation and 1 ICE or something and see how the deck feels. The biggest advantage of NEXT decks are that they can be in very good situation to push agendas during second or third turn already but you need burst money to do this. NEXT wants to be fast and score early. My best NEXT deck uses almost only operations (Hedge and Demonstration are the most important) and cheap ETR ice.

Anyways, I feel there are 2 good ways to do a NEXT deck and they both might be better as 45 cards. Both try to score couple agendas early but the end game differs. One way is to get big ICE through Priority and rez operations what you are doing. I just feel this too uncertain with cases I said earlier. Other way is to finish the game with Sansan and Biotics. I also think 3x Jackson is needed in NEXT because NEXT can get a bad agenda jam maybe easier than other decks and more important the good window to score agendas comes fast with NEXT and you want to have agendas that time.

But thanks for sharing the deck, I need to try that kind of NEXT more.
 
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Glenn Glenn
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I actually have not played this type of deck much, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

I love the idea, especially rush closing out with fast advance. My question is about director Haas. Is this the deck to use her in? You build up ice towers pretty quickly, and using her early while runners can't get in can lead to a pretty large advantage.

Doing things like installing melange and using it the same turn, scoring gila, vitrivirus, or abt from hand, or just snowballing with 4 clicks a turn seems fantastic. Plus, it actually gives you a legitimate threat in your remote, even early, something only melange does really well. Plus, 5 to trash is nothing to sneeze at.
 
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John Thornby
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Kandiru wrote:
You actually have a really really good chance of having a big ice and an operation to rez it on your first turn.


I'm not sure I agree with your maths here for a number of your calculations.

Your calculation of P(operation) assumes 9 random cards, but that's not correct because there are conditional probabilities here. If you drew 3 ICE initially (in order to have seen 9 cards in total) then you have only seen, at most, 6 non-ICE cards so your chances of drawing the op are significantly reduced.

Your deck is 49 cards (46 now, effectively) of which 6 are the big ops so the chance of the first card NOT being an op is 40/46; the next is 39/45 and so on.

So your chance for them ALL NOT to be is:

(40*39*38*37*36*35) / (46*45*44*43*42*41) = 0.41

And so your chance to get at least one of the ops is 1 minus this, which is ~ 0.59

Your calculation of 73% for the Bioroids is ok to a first approximation, i.e. it's correct if you assume 9 random cards, but that's not a true reflection of the situation because 9 random cards includes loads of scenarios in which you actually didn't get 3+ ICE (which means you didn't actually see 9 cards after all).

Those percentages and your mulligan strategy are also not good enough. You have to play to maximise the ID ability as it's the only thing NEXT does for you, so it's not acceptible to settle for 2 ICE. So I would also run more ICE. 23/49, with your mulligan strategy, gives you a 53% chance of 3 or more ICE and 95% chance of 2 or more (after mulligan). If you change your mulligan strategy to anything less than 3 then these change to 68% and 88% respectively. If you cut your deck to 45, with the same number of ICE, and played the aggressive mulligan then you get 77% and 92% (64% and 98% with your "play it safe" strategy).

Arto definitely has the right idea. He makes a good point about Deus X too. Deus X ruins your bioroids - derezzing or trashing them. Remember it's not just the monetary cost you lose, playing ops to rez ICE costs you click as well which means it's money you didn't gain, a card you didn't draw or an agenda you didn't score.
 
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Kester J
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xenakis wrote:
If you can't use all the ICE you install with the NEXT ability then it's essentially wasted, so my feeling is that these decks should be small ICE and economy ops.


Great post. I've been testing Next Design quite a bit, and if there's one piece of advice to take into account, it's this one. I tried big ice decks with Beta Test, Pri Req, Oversight AI, Awakening Center, you name it, and they either work brilliantly (~1/3 of the time) or never get going (~2/3 of the time). Every single interation, I'd drop some of the big ice, until I realised that the big ice was the problem and scrapped the lot.

If you're playing Next, it should be because you want to use those early installs right from the starting pistol. If you don't take advantage until a few turns in, you should've been playing EtF instead. I feel the first 6 influence in Next should almost always be 3x Beanstalk, 3x Ice Wall, because this gets you much closer to accomplishing your aim of rezzing all your ice on turn 1. Remember, the longer you go without rezzing your ice, the more you should've been playing EtF.

That's not to say I think Next is great - it isn't. You can make decks which are decent, but they have to fit an incredibly specific format for two reasons. One is that you're wasting the ability if you don't rez ice as early as possible, as already mentioned. The second is that, as anyone who has tested it will know, Next is very susceptible to early agenda flood because of those early extra draws. How do you make those early agendas and installs work for you? By making it an agenda rush deck, which means packing as much cheap end the run ice as possible, and the econ operations to rez it quickly while still advancing agendas. Asset econ is bad; it takes up server space you could be putting agendas in, and is way too slow to boot - the rez cost alone often slows you down by a couple of turns.

It's a very vanilla deck to play - no tricks, just play ice and agendas - so I got bored and wandered on to something else and can't remember the exact composition I was running. But it's total 45 cards, with something like 23 ice (all end the run; no bioroids as they don't do so reliably), 3x each of Beanstalk, Hedge Fund and Green Level Clearance (to maximise turn 1 income), 3x Beta Test, 1x Project Vitruvius, 2x Exec Retreat, 2x Pri Req (so 4 3-pointers and 4 2-pointers), 2x Biotic Labor. That leaves 3 cards that I forget - possibly Melange, which wasn't very good, but which I left in to have at least one asset to bluff agendas with if necessary (this was probably a mistake).

Ideal opening turn is Economy Op, Install second ice on remote, Install 2-pointer in remote, and is actually more common than one might think. The plan was to score a 2-pointer and a 3-pointer by about turn 6 or 7 behind cheap ice, then connect Biotic with one of the remaining 2-pointers for the win. The first part of the plan worked very well - surprisingly, it was the second that I always had trouble with; I'd either get R&D locked or siphon locked before I could manage it. I think this could be improved by tinkering with the agenda setup (probably dropping a Pri Req for a Gila Hands and another Vitruvius) so that the plan isn't so rigid.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it - this is basically a very long, verbose and self-indulgent way of saying "I agree with John!"
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Ony Moose
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The trouble with having even more ICE is you seriously compromise your economy cards. I've added in 2*Jackson and taken out 1*OverSight a well as the 2*Eve to put in a Wall of Static, and swapped an Eli for a Wall of Static to have 2 of each.

It works well when it gets a good start (which really means being able to spend turn 2-3 using melange.)

I lost one game horrible against Atman when I got a bad start, but I managed to win another one with a good one. NEXT:Bronze did a great job of keeping out the runner combined with RotoTurrets and Eli and Wall of Static. NEXT's ability to be Str 1 then 2 is very handy, and Eli and Wall of Static work well together. One thing this deck does do with the big bioroids is turn an early Oversighted Janus on Melange into a long term advantage as you can rez all your ice and Heimdall 2.0's on R&D/Remote. But it probably isn't reliable enough for a tournament deck compared to HB:EtF.

Heimdall 2.0 isn't vulnerable to Faerie, but Janus being vulnerable to DeusX is a problem. I might swap Janus for Ichi 2.0 since that way DeusX will only work on Heimdall 2.0, and Faerie on Ichi 2.0. The big bioroids really help against parasite heavy decks and shutdown decks, since you are rezzing them for cheap anyway you might as well make them as big and scary as possible.

Maybe removing all the big ice and using all small ice and Director Haas/SanSan would work. SanSan is quite a lot of your influence though. Its certainly a fun deck to play, more so than the standard HB:SanSan/Biotic post-rush deck which isn't that fun to play as thb.
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John Thornby
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Kandiru wrote:
The trouble with having even more ICE is you seriously compromise your economy cards.


You actually don't. If you strip out all the superfluous stuff you can actually increase your concentration of economy cards, relative to other decks.

Kandiru wrote:
It works well when it gets a good start (which really means being able to spend turn 2-3 using melange.)

I lost one game horrible against Atman when I got a bad start, but I managed to win another one with a good one.


And you will continue to get bad starts if you don't use a higher proportion of ICE. If you don't get a three ICE opener then you might as well be playing EtF. The whole point of NEXT is it gets some early protection into play, if you're not maximising that edge then your deck would behave exactly the same with another identity driving it.

Kandiru wrote:
One thing this deck does do with the big bioroids is turn an early Oversighted Janus on Melange into a long term advantage as you can rez all your ice and Heimdall 2.0's on R&D/Remote.


R&D yes, remote no! That is the worst thing you can do with it. What people are still failing to realise is that the runner doesn't need to run remotes, except in match play where agenda score matters. I'm perfectly happy to let the corp spend resources scoring a few agendas because it makes my life easier breaking into R&D repeatedly to establish the lock.

Once you get to mid game the remote is dead because the runner will be seeing everything in R&D before you. You might hide a Melange in there, but that's too late by the mid-game.

Kandiru wrote:
The big bioroids really help against parasite heavy decks and shutdown decks.


I disagree actually. Having more ICE than the runner can deal with helps vs. ICE destruction strategies. Especially because they're usually worse equipped to actually beat the ICE with breakers.
Having a big ICE might be a temporary road block but if they want it dead it still will be.

Kandiru wrote:
Maybe removing all the big ice and using all small ice and Director Haas/SanSan would work. SanSan is quite a lot of your influence though. Its certainly a fun deck to play, more so than the standard HB:SanSan/Biotic post-rush deck which isn't that fun to play as thb.


At the end of the day people can play whatever fun decks they like. But if you're going to post in a forum asking for advice then others will assume you want to be competitive. Being competitive means playing to your ID's strengths, which in this case means conceding that the identity is optimised for early protection and taking a rush game to the runner before he is ready to move. I can't see that your current build is any better than an equivalent deck running EtF, and we already know that deck to be sub-optimal compared to the fast advance builds.
 
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Ony Moose
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xenakis wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
The trouble with having even more ICE is you seriously compromise your economy cards.


You actually don't. If you strip out all the superfluous stuff you can actually increase your concentration of economy cards, relative to other decks.

Every card in that list is either economy, ice or an agenda. I'm counting rezzes ice for cheap as economy in this. Do you not count them as economy? Being able to rez Heimdall 2.0 and Janus 1.0 for only 4C and install an agenda into the remote is quite powerful.

xenakis wrote:

Kandiru wrote:
It works well when it gets a good start (which really means being able to spend turn 2-3 using melange.)

I lost one game horrible against Atman when I got a bad start, but I managed to win another one with a good one.


And you will continue to get bad starts if you don't use a higher proportion of ICE. If you don't get a three ICE opener then you might as well be playing EtF. The whole point of NEXT is it gets some early protection into play, if you're not maximising that edge then your deck would behave exactly the same with another identity driving it.

Yes, I would like a higher % of Ice. I was thinking about Minelayer. Its not very good as the last ice in a server, but if its the outermost of 2 then when they go to facecheck you can rez that, rez the ice wall behind it and they now don't know what the outer ice is. If they install a corroder and run they are risking a roto sniping it. Minelayer seems worthless as the bottom ice (but would be OK on an economy remote) but pretty helpful installed second. The trouble with the ID is of course that you'll often then be installing Minelayer first, although it could be good on Archives then to let them in once, but deny them repeat access (which is normally what screws you over by having an open archives.)

xenakis wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
One thing this deck does do with the big bioroids is turn an early Oversighted Janus on Melange into a long term advantage as you can rez all your ice and Heimdall 2.0's on R&D/Remote.


R&D yes, remote no! That is the worst thing you can do with it. What people are still failing to realise is that the runner doesn't need to run remotes, except in match play where agenda score matters. I'm perfectly happy to let the corp spend resources scoring a few agendas because it makes my life easier breaking into R&D repeatedly to establish the lock.

Once you get to mid game the remote is dead because the runner will be seeing everything in R&D before you. You might hide a Melange in there, but that's too late by the mid-game.

I've never actually been R&D Locked in the games I've played. The early agenda flooding from your extra draws means I've tended to put shadow/pop-up on R&D and ice wall on HQ. By the time they establish an R&D lock, I've normally got 7 points of agendas in hand/scored and its just a matter of trying to score them without them being stolen. Oversighted Janus on a remote to let you melange for the first couple of turns means you can rez all your ice and rush your agendas through from HQ quickly. I can see that replacing this with successful demonstration and more ETR ice would probably also work, but might suffer in the long run as if I did get agenda locked, I could just stick heimdall2.0 on R&D and oversight/efficiency him (or hard rez) which really slows the runner down. If all I have is small ice it'll be harder to lock them out.

xenakis wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
The big bioroids really help against parasite heavy decks and shutdown decks.


I disagree actually. Having more ICE than the runner can deal with helps vs. ICE destruction strategies. Especially because they're usually worse equipped to actually beat the ICE with breakers.
Having a big ICE might be a temporary road block but if they want it dead it still will be.

Yes, the big ice will still die if they really want it to, but what I mean is it's as hard for a parasite to kill a Janus1.0 no matter how you rezzed it, so the weakness of OversightAI doesn't apply and you've made them waste a surge, several clicks of running archives for datasuckers (which will also give you credits/cost them credits) to remove something which cost you 2clicks an 1C. I call that a good trade!

xenakis wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
Maybe removing all the big ice and using all small ice and Director Haas/SanSan would work. SanSan is quite a lot of your influence though. Its certainly a fun deck to play, more so than the standard HB:SanSan/Biotic post-rush deck which isn't that fun to play as thb.


At the end of the day people can play whatever fun decks they like. But if you're going to post in a forum asking for advice then others will assume you want to be competitive. Being competitive means playing to your ID's strengths, which in this case means conceding that the identity is optimised for early protection and taking a rush game to the runner before he is ready to move. I can't see that your current build is any better than an equivalent deck running EtF, and we already know that deck to be sub-optimal compared to the fast advance builds.

Yes, that's fair criticism. I like the Oversight/Efficiency research decks for essentially burst econ where you suddenly pull ahead of the runner and score agendas they can't break. I've tried them in Weyland, and while Oversighted Hadrian's is a beast since nothing breaks it for cheap the deck didn't work too well. With NEXT's free draws and installs it works a lot better early game, and a late game turn of Install agenda, rez 2 Janus 1.0 on a server which already has a rezzed Heimdall 2.0 is rather powerful! I suppose you would get the same sort of effect from Biotic Labour for rushing out a final agenda, but without the same support for the early game.

I've really liked efficiency committee in my games though, the ability to score an agenda and then do a virus wipe or melange is rather powerful!
 
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John Thornby
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Kandiru wrote:

Every card in that list is either economy, ice or an agenda. I'm counting rezzes ice for cheap as economy in this. Do you not count them as economy? Being able to rez Heimdall 2.0 and Janus 1.0 for only 4C and install an agenda into the remote is quite powerful.


Yes I do count them as economy but the problem is your economy is all slow and/or vulnerable. You can't possibly protect your campaigns, so the runner can trash them which keeps you very poor. Melange is totally incompatible with pushing through agendas because it's so resource and click intensive. You must dedicate a remote to it or else you're basically only using it once (in which case it might as well have been a Hedge Fund) and if you do then you're wasting clicks, cards and creds by protecting it.

Rezzing a Janus or Heimdall with Bio/Oversight is certainly economy, but it's quite limited. Instead of having a bunch of credits in play which can threaten the rez of a whole plethora of ICE and/or agenda advancement, you now have one big ICE in play with a target painted on its back. The runner can now prepare better and, more importantly, you don't have money to threaten anything else so it's an easy workaround. Not to mention it's cost you a click to perform an action that normally doesn't cost you time, i.e. rezzing ICE. That means it's a turn you couldn't use Melange or score an agenda.

Kandiru wrote:

I've never actually been R&D Locked in the games I've played.


This is all too common an argument. Just because your deck has managed up until now, doesn't mean it's good. It boils down to the fact that most people aren't very good at the game and/or deck building. If you haven't been R&D locked then it tells me that the quality of your opponents probably wasn't that high, rather than that your deck is overly successful. Siphon Lock and R&D lock are very real things, especially at the highest level of the game, and I don't think this deck deals well with either of them. You have no real way to recover from a large economy drain.

Even assuming you are somehow fast enough to prevent R&D lock, I think Janus still poses a massive weakness. He's too expensive to be legitimately rezzed and so you're relying on a combo to use him. Notwithstanding his weakness to Deus X or click/e3 his main problem is that he doesn't end the run. This means he is terrible as a last line of defence. If you and the runner are at match point you will need your final agenda in play for at least a turn (because you can't score it out of hand) which means the runner can afford to take 4 brain damage and stroll through Janus FTW.

Maybe consider only using Heimdall? He has broadly the same weaknesses as Janus but is actually much harder to break legitimately (think about what breakers are typically played in most decks). He's not beyond the realms of rezzing legitimately but he does make the runner spend clicks or get a breaker.
 
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Ony Moose
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Yes, Janus has only proved really useful when I got a runner to 5 brain damage when he ran past a Heimdall2.0 and a Janus1.0 in to find a melange rather than a game-winning agenda. he couldn't get past Janus after that. Heimdall 2.0 is more generally applicable, and I have rezzed them properly a few times (and with an Eli 1.0 in front they are pretty solid.)

Account siphon has definitely been a problem and so I've tended to defend HQ over R&D since with an early glut of agendas HQ represents the bigger threat. If I have shadow and pop-up on R&D, the runner's early forrays will at least provide me a strong income so I can afford to drop a Heimdall 2.0 on R&D to safeguard it later. Roto/NEXT:Bronze/Eli/WoS/IceWall have proved very good at keeping decks locked out of centrals, with their strength changing for atman and being STR in all 3 types for normal decks.

Heimdall 2.0 has probably won me more games than Janus 1.0, and is immune to Faerie so I'm tempted to keep him. If I drop the Janus and Oversights I can add in Caduceus. Or maybe an extra Ice wall and shadow. If I drop all the Oversights and Efficiency I could downgrade Heimdall to 1.0 and put in successful demos.

Howler seems like it might be good in this deck, since it essentially means you can drop the howler in during your free install, and then choose which ice goes there at a later date which is helpful. But its restricted to Bioroids and is broken by an Atman(0) which then leaves that server very weak. I want to like Howler, but I've never really had it do its job.
 
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John Thornby
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Again, play to the strengths.
Howler and Minelayer are cards taken away from your primary objective and feel really combo-ey. You don't want Minelayer on the inside so it's a terrible card for NEXT as you stand a better chance of having it end up there. Howler will only work for 'roids, and as has been pointed out numerous times in other threads they mostly suck at the moment. If you're taking bioroids out then Howler's already limited effectiveness is reduced.


 
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Steven Tu
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NEXT Design needs cards that are ICE that fill more than ICE roles, like Popups and Shadow as economy. Minelayer is also economy, just not as reliable.

Or you can play NEXT Design as the usual HB Rush with a medium ICE count, count on two installs max, and rush rush rush.

I don't think it'll work very well right now, though. In fact I'm not entirely sure what NEXT ICE can bring to make Next Design competitive - more ICE is more ICE is more ICE... ETR is ETR. They're never gonna make NEXT ICE *that* much bigger/stronger/more facecheck-painful than the others, and if they did it'd drag out into mid/late game since you need more than 2 or 3 to have them synergise very well.

Maybe there'll be an NBN NEXT ICE that made the runner pay 1c for every NEXT ICE in play on encounter. That'd be epic. But probably expensive.

NEXT's bigger problem is balancing its limited econ options and not-just-tiny ICE.
 
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Arto H
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I think NEXT can work only as very tight and focused 45 card rush deck. I see EtF Identity better in all other situations.
 
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