David Seddon
United Kingdom
Congleton
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Forward Observer #3 – Wargaming by Wire

Our third FO is about the different methods you can use to wargame online. There are various methods of doing that and Chris starts us off by outlining them. Then we get into talking over some positive and negative experiences we’ve had online and some of the games we think lend themselves best to the experience.

We hope you enjoy the discussion and that it encourages you to ask some more questions or throw in your own comments.



David Seddon:
Wire wise...would anyone like to do a starting general synopsis about what's available and where (including web addresses. maybe)?

Chris Milne:
I can start. I use a mixture of four pbem aides, depending on game availability and personal/opponent's preference.

ADC2 (http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/adc2/ADC2-Main.html) Of the three installable programs here, this is probably the oldest, and the only one that you have to go out and buy. In common with the other programs, you then have to obtain the game-specific module from somewhere; in ADC2's case this is frequently by buying it from the publisher. In my experience, the quality of those modules can vary significantly. Some are beautiful, some very basic, and one or two I've had contain significant inaccuracies.

My opinion: this is my least favourite of the available options. Apart from the price, I find the interface to be old-fashioned (no click-and-drag here) and it lacks the key features of both Cyberboard and VASSAL (of which, more later). It does have some useful features, including a LOS checker and hidden units, but I've found them fiddly. I seem to remember that a new version is being developed that may well resolve my issues.

Cyberboard (http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/) A free download with lots and lots of free game modules (gameboxes in Cyberboard parlance). Again, the quality of those gameboxes is dependent on the ability and commitment of the module designer. I've found some to be excellent, most very good, a few downright disastrous. CB gives you a click-and-drag interface and has one significant feature that the competition lacks: a replay option. You can go right back through the game you're playing, at any time, and replay parts to see what happened. Very handy in some games, not needed in others. Another advantage for many is that this is a simple .exe file; you can put that on a memory stick and run it from there. Not that I'd condone anyone doing that at work, of course... Cyberboard has a comfortable edge over ADC2 in my opinion, being more flexible and easier to use.

VASSAL (http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php) Another free download with many free game modules (not as many as CB, though). This is Java-based, so you need to get that up and working. Big advantage - non-PC owners can use it. Disadvantage - doesn't always work straight away and takes a bit of techie knowledge to fix things. It's other oft-touted advantage is that you can play live on the VASSAL server; this is not simply a pbem tool. This is the only open-source product here. It originated as a tool to play ASL (VASL) and developed from there, and it still shows some of its heritage. However, the open source nature means that people are able to develop new aspects to it. Each module is highly customisable and so the quality depends on the designer. I have played some that are truly exceptional in providing game-specific features (A Victory Lost springs to mind) and they frequently have handy time-saving shortcuts, particularly the ability to add markers to counters by right-clicking and making a menu selection (as opposed to finding the right marker in the counter window). You've probably guessed that this one is my favourite of the three - when done well it is amazing. It's also the only one I've ever contributed to or tried to design new modules for.

ACTS (http://acts.warhorsesim.com/index.asp) Unlike the three previous programs, this is a pure web-based facility that tracks dice rolls and card plays but doesn't track the state of the board. It is commonly used for CDG play (though there are also block games and others available) and seems to work very well for that purpose. Like Cyberboard, the history of your game is retained in a log, so it's easy to look back through the game and find out what was done when. Quite nice for looking through other people's games as well, if you have a head for tracking what has been happening. Some folk use this as a pure dice server; the three other programs appear to have some interesting dice quirks (I don't think anyone has actually proven anything, but this seems to be more trusted than the other programs for some reason). I know of a few other highly specific pbem aides, particularly for ASL, but perhaps they're best saved for another day.

Rick Young:
One frequently missed option is www.wargameroom.com, which has the distinct advantages of live internet play using a program that actually enforces the rules. This is a fantastic way to learn these games, because you try to do something you think you can do, and when the program won't allow it, you find in the rules why, learning that you've been playing the game wrong all this time. You can save a game in play at any point and resume it later.
I cannot recommend these programs enough. An immense amount of programming has been done by Bruce Wigdor so that play is smooth and that all the rules (and card interactions) are enforced.
The graphics are certainly backward, but even this flaw is being worked on and will soon be resolved.
The games currently supported, in alphabetical order are:
Barbarossa to Berlin
Europe Engulfed
For the People
Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage
Paths of Glory
Sword of Rome (multiplayer)
Up Front
We the People
Wilderness War
As you can see, Bruce has a penchant for programming card-driven games (all except EE on his list), so I hope he does Twighlight Struggle next.

Chris Milne:
Indeed, and I've heard good things about it (particularly on Europe Engulfed). Unfortunately, I don't play any of the games it supports, so I've never had the chance to check it out.

Mike von Ahnen:
Playing wargames by mail, email, or online is almost a requirement for most wargamers now a days. It is hard to find opponents for face to face play, particularly for some of the long, complicated wargames there are. I have played wargames "remotely" for almost as long as I had played wargames. The recent availability of software programs to simplify this process made wargaming easy for non face to face play. No longer filling out paper forms, or checking stock market returns, they have this all built in. I have experience with two of the programs on the market, Cyberboard and Vassal. Cyberboard is a freeware Windows based program to create and play board wargames using a computer host. There is no AI, just a GUI for moving the pieces, resolving die rolls, sending messages, and outputing a file for email to your opponent. The tool consists of two programs, the editor program for creating and editing your "gamebox" and the playing program, that you use when you actually play the game. The program is not open source, but the tools allow you to create your own game, since the program does not change depending on the game you play. The creation tools are very straight forward and easy to use. It supports loading in images for the mapboard, but also has the tools for creating your own mapboard. The editing tools are usable, not quite a commericial graphics editing tool, but a lot more than expected for the price. The creator maintains a user group and frequently updates the program and supports questions and issues from the users. Without this, there might be some concern over its longevity, but it is well supported. It has all of the features built in, die rolls, resizing the mapboard, random selection of units, multiple player capability, messaging, output file generation, etc. There is no expandability of the features, however, so if it does not have the feature in it, you have to wait to see if the designer puts it in the next generation. The other one I have use is Vassal. It is a java based freeware program, so by definition, platform independent. It has pretty much all of the features of Cyberboard, but also includes the capability to play on line. In addition, the look and feel, plus other features can be added in the modules of the game, so it will most likely look different for every game you play on it. But this comes at a cost. The performance of Vassal on even state of the art computers is considerably slower than Cyberboard, taking in some instances minutes to load the game. Also, having first hand knowledge creating games for Cyberboard and attempting to create on on Vassal, it is much harder to build a module for Vassal than a gamebox for Cyberboard. Having played only one module, I can not comment in detail of the differences, but back to the performance, it runs slower, which effects many aspects of the game play, from moving units, to switching views, to opening other windows in the game. It feels sluggish in comparision. My recommendation for Play by Email would be for Cyberboard, except in the cases where there is some feature not available that has to be added. Then Vassal is the choice. Both of these programs are great, it is only a matter of personal need and choice for which one to use.

David Seddon:
I love playing ACTS, but I have faced gremlins with it. Has anyone else -indeed gremlins with any of the wire-plays?
Basically, sometimes (but rarely) I get a message from my opponent a day after it was sent. Sometimes I don't get it at all. More frequently, the messages arrive in the wrong order. This can make play difficult unless you keep your screen on Play Journal and keep refreshing.

Chris Milne:
Occasional emails go missing. Some people I've played have set up two email accounts which seems to catch a lot of the problems. I've never had one lost, but I don't use it particularly intensively (only 1 game on the go at a time on ACTS). If I notice my opponent hasn't moved in a while, I'll drop a quick email just to check that they got the last move. Of course, losing emails is a hazard of pbem.

Joe Steadman:
I’ve never had a problem…which game do you play.

David Seddon:
Mainly PoG. I've had the wrong message-order problem with Hannibal, too. The missing messages problem is, thankfully, rare, as I say.

David Seddon:
Are there any particular games that you think lend themselves especially to gaming by wire?
I'm thinking the longer ones - and maybe especially if they are multi-player ones, though I have yet to try those for myself.
What are your experiences on ACTS, Vassal and the rest?
Michael Gouker:
I don’t use ACTS, but VASSAL works great for card games. Cyberboard is also a great way of playing games over the Internet

Mike von Ahnen:
I have played Russian Campaign, Onslaught, Fortress Europa, and World in Flames via Cyberboard and Third Reich with Vassal (PBEM). Of these by far Russian Campaign is the easiest to play by email, given its almost exclusive "You Go / I Go" nature. Given that the attacker always selects the retreat route and that usually it is pretty obvious which defender loss would be selected, you can do a single mailing per turn, with both impulses. Fortress Europa is a bit more complicated, with the air allocation, but still is pretty straight forward in play by email. I think we averaged 3 emails per turn, which is not too bad. Onslaught is a bit more complicated, since the length of the game turn is not fixed, but as long as each player maintains the next phase die rolls at the end of their turn, it move along. Fairly common is that one side might have multiple "actions" in a row. In this case, it is very important that detailed comments are written, so the other player can keep track of what is going on. World in Flames is not especially suited for play by email, but it is played anyway. Some of the issues are that the impulses can break down into mini combats, with multiple rounds, as in the air to air combat and naval combat. It is helpful to plan ahead and send conditions for continuing or aborting the combat rounds, that allows the active player to play out the particular combat. But it is suitable for PBEM play in terms of giving the player time to look over his move and plan it. One of the issue of WIF is it has so many decisions, that the analysis time can take longer than the play. This is totally suited for PBEM. Having played many games by mail, that were not intended for it, I can not think of any game that can not be done by mail, email, etc, given the players work at it and are patient in the game play.

Third Reich, as with World in Flames, has a bit more in turn interaction, so that it is likely that there will be multiple mailings per player turn. But since these are pretty much limited to naval interceptions and defensive air support. One other thing that tended to create some confusion was the counter attack combat. Since this can go back and forth several times, it is important to keep track and notate the combats, whether it is the original attacker or the defender who is counterattacking. I did not find the Vassal module for Third Reich to be as easy to use as Cyberboard. Cyberboard runs the same for whatever game is loaded, the mechanics do not depend on the module. Vassal can have custom displays and component characteristics per module. The thing that I found hard about the Third Reich module was the fact the counters "snapped" to the center of the hex, not allowing you to leave an edge to select the bottom units. I found myself messing up neighbooring stacks while trying to look at the bottom units, almost like trying it on a real board. I guess Vassal makes a better simulation in that term. But it was by no means unplayable, and it was only minor issues that I noticed.


David Seddon:
Wow! Third Reich by wire. Must be a handful indeed. It's hard enough F2F! How do you find the experience of that game per se now, compared to newer fare like Europe Engulfed?
And I agree about TRC. That works very well over the wire. I've played that on Cyberboard.

Mike von Ahnen:
I have not tried Europe Engulfed, since my wargaming has been pretty much limited to PBEM (except for a game of Battle for Germany at BGG.CON), I have not invested too much in newer wargames, just dusted off what I have on the shelf. Third Reich is not too bad PBEM, better than I had imagined. Since things like naval interceptions and DAS are not as common as would be expected, the game flow was not bad PBEM. Nice thing is that my opponent and I used chat to work through any tough issues. It also went relatively quickly, we started mid November and completed in January, including vacations and etc. We moved on to World in Flames, 5th Edition. One of our biggest issues is resolving rules questions, since this is an edition behind the in print version. But after having a game under our belt, we are working through it well, and since this is a learning game, we are not too worried if we find out something was done wrong a few turn earlier. It is a much slower process, however, since there is 6 turns per year and multiple impulses per turn. But where there is a will, there is a way. I suspect if we do another we will add the Planes in Flames / Carriers in Flames expansions, since that adds alot to the basic game.

David Seddon:
I must admit that multi-player wargames are something that I have not yet dabbled with via wire. I'd love to have a go in the next few months at Successors or Sword of Rome on ACTS . I'm sure that Pax Romana and Here I Stand will be on before long, too. And then there's all the stuff you can play using other engines. I want to hear from others who have the experience, but my guess would be that though you may have to wait a long time for slow players, at least you don't get the pain of live Analysis Paralysis (AP) in between turns. I mean F2F that can be a real pain and a game like Successors may well cause it due to its depth. If on-line players don't spend a whole lot of time desperately logging on to catch the next move, I guess this saving of live-AP time could be good. I guess also, that a game like Successors would be good to learn online. I mean, if you had one or two of the players who were veterans at it, they could explain if a newbie made a rule mistake. Such is the depth and rule length of the game that mistakes would be bound to happen to start with. Who's got experience of playing any of the multi-players online by wire and how do you feel about them compared to playing two-player games?

And, of course, there's also The Napoleonic Wars and Wellington. Anyone got those or the new one on order...is it Kutnetzov?

Views on playing those online? Which ones work best are most enjoyable?

Andrew Young:
I've not played Wellington yet but have it. Multiplayer wargames can be tough I should think due to all of the back and forth. I've got a game of Age of Steam on VASSAL going- it can be slow but isn't as complex as a wargame, certainly.

Paul O’ Connor:
I’ve had mixed results trying to learn a new game via e-mail. On one hand, the format affords plenty of opportunities to review rules and construct strategies while not burdening your opponent with excessive downtime, but on the other hand I’ve found it difficult even for a skilled tutor to explain how to play a game via email. There’s just too much necessity to take back moves and award mulligans in learning a new game to easily function inside an email game, where moves may already be strung out by weeks or days in the first place.
Mating VASSAL with a tutor over Skype would effectively reproduce a FTF experience and get around this problem.
My PBEM experience has been limited to several two-player games over ACTS. I can’t imagine that a multi-player game would be harder to enjoy, so much as it would be longer, particularly in any game featuring an intercept or interrupt mechanic. Long battle resolutions can also take a toll. I do recall playing Titan via ACTS several years ago, which was both multi-player and featured lengthy battle resolution. Those games could take quite some time but the Titan community on ACTS (at least backing the late 1990s, when I was playing) seemed a dedicated group and the games moved along at a reasonable pace. It does require that you stay on it, though. Having three or four days pass between emails of two players who each think the other guy is supposed to move next can really take the urgency out of a game.

David Seddon:
Yeah, and any game which requires card plays to resolve battles can take longer (eg Hannibal and We the People).
You are right also about the intercept rule. That, again, can really slow up Hannibal in theory - though in practise my opponents have tried to stay online at the same time as me during a battle - that really helps it along.
Have heard mixed reviews about Wellington. I think the battle system is quite similar to The Napoloenic Wars isn't it? I think Joseph G panned that on BGG if I recall - I have a memory for when a fellow wargamer puts the boot in on a game that I was checking out - especially if his arguments are very coherent and logical - as his were.
I've been put off several games by incisive comments. I think one really bad, but spot on comment can possibly outweigh 5+ good ones that are more vague. It all depends of course on what the comments are and how much you want/know about the game - but you get my drift, and I digress. But there are certain comments that would put me off per se if I trusted the person writing the comment.

Michael Gouker:
I played lots of Pax Romana online using VASSAL. It works great. The cards are handled by having hands where the players can store the kept cards (and objectives) secretly. There are randomizers for activation chits and the card draw. Also, there are chat windows you can open up with other players to engage in diplomacy.
I can’t wait to play ftf with a board though. That’s going to be fun. 45 days or so… tick tick.

Andrew Young:
Those mechanics are ones that always slow up wargames online- a sad fact. But, necessary of course. Sometimes in playing games online I leave some discretion to my opponent (if it's mono e mono!) to speed things up. Certainly, my opponent can always roll dice for me to cut down on files back and forth.
But, I'm interested in what you've heard about Wellington. The BS is quite similar from what I know of NW. Hmm, I'll have to check out his comments. Wellington came out and kinda died with respect to buzz. That and Empire of the Sun, IMO.


Michael Gouker:
I could see where Wellington would be complicated by Wire unless VASSAL was used. There is quite a bit of need for immediate interaction. We handle things like interceptions in Pax Romana through VASSAL by asking in the chat window, “Are you intercepting?” when we move into a space where it can occur. Wellington is the same in this respect. Also, multiple cards can be played sometimes and there is also the opportunity to preempt when you have more cards.
Face-to-face, Wellington is a great game. It has several clever mechanics – my favorite is how it pits allies against each other. It can get embarrassing when you discover that your “ally” has failed to play a card that would help you just to assure more VP in the end.
Here is a link to my session report:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/79942

Chris Milne:
I found Welly to be a fun game, though I've only played two-player. I don't have a clue whether it's historical or not, but it seems to me to have omitted some of the elements of CDGs that I dislike (covering multiple states with one hand of cards, using a set of special cards for key events) while retaining the limited resource fun. I doubt very much that it's historical, but it's a fun little game that's quick to play and presents you with some moderately complex situations and solutions.

Andrew Young:
Thanks Chris. It does look interesting. Control of Duchies is actually cool- looks to be important to understand who actually has control. The other thing I liked was the set soldier count and how other players can cause you to lose that set....

David Seddon:
As a final comment on gaming by wire, the thoughts of a friend of mine who I have recently got into playing Paths of Glory on ACTS are interesting. For me, he kind of nails quite a lot of important factors:

COMMENTS ON CYBERBOAD & ACTS
PLUS POINTS
1) You can play otherwise inaccessible gamers – people living a long distance away and people who would otherwise find it hard to find the time to play.
2) You can pick up and put down games in small bite sized chunks at otherwise inconvenient times.
3) The board is good – graphics, ease of use etc. of the Cyberboard
4) You don’t have the logistical problem of having to arrange multiple face to face meetings.
5) You don’t have to spend time setting up, recording (if the game is to continue) and packing up the game when you play it.
NEGATIVES
1) It's a bit addictive. You want to see what your opponent will do. You don’t want to stop until you have got to a suitable stopping point – end of turn or good position for your own side. That combined with its ease of access means that there is a compulsion to play on and fritter your time away, perhaps against your better judgement.
2) Written ACTS communication is more difficult, more time consuming and less sociable than face-to-face.
3) We both have to move the same pieces on the PC
4) You have to wait for your opponent’s response, checking / refreshing ACTS/e-mail every so often. You don’t know what your opponent is doing while you are waiting with baited breath for his next move. You are tempted to go off and do something yourself, while you wait, but do not want to keep your opponent waiting after he has conducted his turn.
5) If you use a PC all day at work you can get a bit ‘bog eyed’ if I do too much ACTS later.
6) If your internet access is pay as you go, your phone bill will rise a bit.
7) The game Paths of Glory may be all about attrition, but you can feel a bit of attrition on your self as well if you play it too much online. It can take over things a bit.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Seddon
United Kingdom
Congleton
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, for information, the FO team is now 3/4 of the way through discussing AH Classics, which will be FO #4. That should be out in the next 2-4 weeks.

We are also now starting to discuss FO #5 - Multi-Player wargames.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Shaffer
United States
San Francisco
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chris Milne wrote:
ADC2...I seem to remember that a new version is being developed that may well resolve my issues.


The "new version" of ADC2 has been promised and in development since the late 1990s. I'd not hold my breath waiting for it.

Chris Milne wrote:
CB gives you a click-and-drag interface and has one significant feature that the competition lacks: a replay option. You can go right back through the game you're playing, at any time, and replay parts to see what happened. Very handy in some games, not needed in others.


ADC2 has always had replays. I'm not sure how you'd use it without them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Once again, nice articles. I'm currently writing up a post about PBEM gaming in general, so it was good to see this discussion, (which only briefly touched on some of my thoughts). Keep up the good work!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Young
Wales
Wellesley
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One of the things that Stan Hilinski and I have been talking about relative to PbeM is expectations and the ability of some to simply disappear during a game. Stan has mentioned this to me before- he's had many experiences where his opponent simply vanishes and the game ends.

I think that it is a great practice whilst setting up a game to set expecations and ground rules. I.E. Expectations on the amount of files emailed each week, ground rules on certain points that may require game maintenance, etc.

Andy
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Avtges
United States
Bridgewater
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
CONCEALED -3
badge
It's not easy being green.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is a great review of the available tools. I have personally had great success with Cyberboard, not so much with VASSAL, which I have just recently started trying to use. VASSAL has some fairly significant performance issues which is impeding my progress. Fortunately, I'm not really interested in online "live" play...pbem is just right for me, so Cyberboard is perfect.

One topic I'd also be interested in hearing about is places to find opponents. There are numerous ladders and online tournaments, but things are spread around a lot of different websites and sometimes it's tough to figure out where to look or ask for an opponent.

Also, something regarding supplementary tools, such as Skype, would also be interesting.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Young
Wales
Wellesley
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nix342 wrote:
This is a great review of the available tools. I have personally had great success with Cyberboard, not so much with VASSAL, which I have just recently started trying to use. VASSAL has some fairly significant performance issues which is impeding my progress. Fortunately, I'm not really interested in online "live" play...pbem is just right for me, so Cyberboard is perfect.

One topic I'd also be interested in hearing about is places to find opponents. There are numerous ladders and online tournaments, but things are spread around a lot of different websites and sometimes it's tough to figure out where to look or ask for an opponent.

Also, something regarding supplementary tools, such as Skype, would also be interesting.


VASSAL has a list of opponents for the particular module. I'm sure you've seen it. It's a great place to start. Mostly, I've seen emails from people to the module group asking for opponents. However, I'd try that as well as asking the people there for other players they know. No one has done that with me and I know guys that are not on that list.

Andy
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
Well, I haven't had ANY "success" in getting these 'programs' to work properly, and I even had to 'quit' trying the "Fortress America" game version that is out there. So yeah, I've got this 'cumbersome' method that I'm doing for the time being, while I expect it all to evolve into where "web-cam" playings will eventually become the 'thang'. I also use various "chat" programs for the resolution of "die rolling", and YES, it does mean having "Gamers" that you trust implicitly for this. Since it is just for the "FUN" of it, then we're getting by as it stands. I don't LIKE them "computer generated" die-roll devices as they SUCK! If I had to, then I'd go BACK to using the "stock numbers" to generate "results" just as they'd 'done' long ago. At least then, there wouldn't BE some ridiculous "outcome" that I'd take 'issue' with. Oh yeah, we've even HAD some "outcomes" that are truly mind-boggling as well, but at least WE "generated" them ourselves and NOT some stupid, insipid 'computer' program that had done so.
surprise
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Paul mentioned before about how Skype with Vassal works well in combination. I have to agree. I had a chance to playtest Onward Christian Soldiers with two gamers far removed from me. Skype really added a lot to the fun. It's hard to talk in a chat window while saying something else though. Maybe my wiring is bad upstairs though.


Edit: Actually it was Gizmo that we used. Skype doesn't work for me because I run Softice (a debugger) on my machine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nix342 wrote:
Also, something regarding supplementary tools, such as Skype, would also be interesting.


Basically, Skype and Gizmo work by adding audio to the experience. Video is also possible (at least with Skype).

You probably can run gizmo right now. You can download it and test with the echo option. You can connect by user id to another user and just talk. You can also set up conference calls, so multiple players can communicate at once. So far, it is free, but I am going to invest in a good headset!

;^)

Edit: Adding link to gizmo project -

http://www.gizmoproject.com/

Have fun!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.