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Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Battle question rss

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Joe Kong
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As a defender in a battle, suppose the attacker initially deploys a block with a card. The defender then immediately plays a Loyalty card:

1) If the challenge succeeds and the block changes side, is it counted as deploying the first block with a card? Does that mean the defender loses the chance of deploying leader blocks without a card?

2) If the challenge fails, can the defender still deploy leader blocks without a card? Even though a card is already played but no block is deployed with a card.

 
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Evil Bob
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I don't believe a loyalty challenge card is considered a deployment card, as it's played during your opponent's deployment step.
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Ishai BD
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Whether the loyalty challenge succeeds or fails, the defender did not deploy a block with a card. That's how I see it.

Hence the defender may deploy leaders without the use of cards.
 
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Joe Kong
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bbhalla wrote:
I don't believe a loyalty challenge card is considered a deployment card, as it's played during your opponent's deployment step.


The block is eventually deployed (defected) to the defender' side by means of the play of a (loyalty) card from the defender. So a card is played and a block is deployed. Just want to clarify if defection is a kind of deployment by the beneficial side.

 
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Manary Corte
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I agree with what has been said here.

Defected blocks are not considered deployed by the faction who played the successful Loyalty Challenge and deployment proceed as normal.

As the player who suffered the defection has played a card, he cannot deploy leaders without a card anymore (I think this can be difficult to happen, but still).
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Joe Kong
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ManCorte wrote:
I agree with what has been said here.

Defected blocks are not considered deployed by the faction who played the successful Loyalty Challenge and deployment proceed as normal.

As the player who suffered the defection has played a card, he cannot deploy leaders without a card anymore (I think this can be difficult to happen, but still).


I still have doubt about this one.

Under 8.2.1, Deployments produce Impact. The active player attempts to deploy but fail. Accordingly no impact was produced. On the contrary, the defected block indeed produces impact for the defender. In other word, it should be counted as a deployment for the defender.

 
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Evil Bob
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"8.2.2 Cards and Deployment
Cards are used to deploy blocks into battle. Each card can deploy
one block. The card used to deploy a block must have the same
mon as the block
. Cards and blocks with different mon cannot
be played together. Exception: Cards of all daimyo designations
may be matched to the sole Ishida block and the sole Ii block. As
a reminder, these blocks both feature a card-shaped rectangle in
the corner.

No card may be played, nor block deployed, twice in the same
battle
."

"8.2.3 Deployment Procedure
The active player plays a card face up, and selects a block from
among his undeployed forces whose mon matches the card. The
block is indicated by placing it face up next to the main stack of
blocks."

The above bolded text explain what deployment refers to and how to deploy blocks.

"8.6 Loyalty Challenge cards
8.6.1 Procedure
Loyalty Challenge cards are marked with
a nobori (banner). They are played out
of turn, immediately after a deployment
by the opposing player, to challenge the
loyalty of the block thus deployed. If the
deploying player can show from their
hand another card capable of deploying
the block just deployed,
the block
remains loyal. The card shown to refute a
Loyalty Challenge returns to the hand of
the player that showed it."

The above bolded text illustrates that the block has already been deployed by the active player BEFORE being Loyalty Challenged. As previously noted, no block may be deployed twice in the same battle.

I hope this helps to clear things up.
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Joe Kong
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That means there is a contradiction.

8.2.1 is negated with respect to "Deployments produce Impact" by 8.6.1 where "Move the block to the challenger's side of the battle. Count Impact for the block on the challenger's Impact table." So a defected block is not considered as a deployment, though it does produce Impact for the Loyalty challenger. A contradiction occurs! Or should we say 8.6.1 is an exception?

 
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Evil Bob
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joekong_hk wrote:

That means there is a contradiction.

8.2.1 is negated with respect to "Deployments produce Impact" by 8.6.1 where "Move the block to the challenger's side of the battle. Count Impact for the block on the challenger's Impact table." So a defected block is not considered as a deployment, though it does produce Impact for the Loyalty challenger. A contradiction occurs! Or should we say 8.6.1 is an exception?



Yes, 8.6.1 is an exception to the standard block deployment/battle procedure. There are only a few (I think ~3 of 54 cards) in each players' decks so they are definitely not a standard occurrence in every battle.
 
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John Cullen

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Interesting. Ummm .... the rules definitely seem to need to be tightened up a bit here. Although I don't think that there is any contradiction; just unexpressed sequence. When do you track impact? And, when do you play Loyalty Challenge Cards? If your opponent has played a card and deployed a block AND tracked the impact, is it to late for you to play a LCC? Does the deploying player have to, at the very least, pause before tracking impact? Or maybe say something like,"You want to do anything about that?" Does the non-deploying player have to say something like, "Hang on a second, let me think about that," before his opponent tracks his impact? If you can play a LCC after the deploying player has tracked his impact and the non-deploying player wins the Loyalty Challenge, would the deploying player have to then reduce the tracked impact? I would presume so, but it doesn't say so. And what impact do you track? If the deploying player had a base impact of 3 plus an impact bonus of 2 for a total impact of 5, what does the winer of a Loyalty Challenge track in impact? Five or three? It seems obvious that he would track three, but it doesn't say that explicitly.

Interesting. Has there ever been a perfect set of rules written?
 
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Evil Bob
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I think the rules are fairly self-explanatory.

8.6.1 Procedure
Loyalty Challenge cards are marked with
a nobori (banner). They are played out
of turn, immediately after a deployment
by the opposing player
, to challenge the
loyalty of the block thus deployed.

If your opponent has assumed that you wouldn't interrupt his deployment and has already tracked impact, they've made a wrong assumption and must roll-back the impact change until the interrupt is resolved. No damage will be done, as you haven't begun your turn yet. This is not a time-sensitive game. (ie. deploy and track impact as quick as you can to avoid interrupts)

No, it's not explicitly written in the rules. It just makes common sense.
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Delwayne Arakaki
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Thank you Bob... sometimes the answer is obvious...
 
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J CU
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Yes. Absolutely. It's not written in the rules. I think that the rules could have been written a bit better here. And I also agree, the rules are very straight forward, very complete, and some of the best rules I've seen. I like them very much. But this situation is a bet quirky. It interrupts what I consider to be a natural flow; play card, deploy block, calculate impact and track impact. Nice and easy. Nice and intuitive. There seems to be an artificial stutter or hick-up in the flow with the LC. Do I have to wait after each and every block is deployed until my opponent decides if he wants to play a LC card? That ain't going to happen. If I've tracked my impact and my opponent says that he wants to play LC card can I say, "Nope. The rules say "immediately". You didn't play it immediately. To bad"? Well that ain't going to happen either. The way I've played it and will continue to play it is, you can play the LC card at any time before the next card is played or your opponent says he's not playing any more cards. If you have to walk back impact, walk it back.
 
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Jon
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I'm unclear of the problem. You play a block, look to your opponent, and, if I suppose you must, say something like "Objection?" to ask if there will be a loyalty check card played, then calculate impact if no loyalty card is played.

After any deployment, the opponent has a chance to respond. If for some reason the opponent needs a moment to decide, she could simply say, "A moment, please," before deciding to deploy the loyalty card, or possibly establishing a bluff for the next deployment.

So I'd say yes, you should "wait after each and every block is deployed until my opponent decides if he wants to play a LC card?" but the time to do so would normally be like four-tenths of a second, and if that isn't true, that's more a problem with you and the other player than it is with the rules.
 
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