Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: a few questions about the production (not rules related) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
jeremy cobert
United States
cedar rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
im sure these have been talked about so if you can, please enlighten me.

1. why did GMT produce this game instead of DOW ? did DOW pass on it or did Mr. Borg pass on them ... i assume something happend, but i would have loved to see the production quality on this game a bit higher. sorry GMT, i love Europe Engulfed, but the quality of CCAG is seriously disappointing.hopefully that will change after i play it a few times.

2. why are blocks marked on both sides ? i thought the whole idea of blocks was for a fog of war effect.

3. why are the block used at all ? if youre not going to turn them for damage levels or Fog then why bother ?

4. what the HECK is with these dice ? these are pathetic, was there a reason they went with this design ?

i am not trying to bash GMT, im just a bit suprised with this.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil Shepherd
United States
Arlington
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Be on your guard. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.
Avatar
mb
#1
I don't know the answer. It has been suggested that he probably did, and that GMT was the only publisher willing to pick it up. This points to why we should be praising GMT.

#2
The blocks are stickered on both sides so that they can be stood up, and each player can see the units from his side of the board. They're meant as a cost effective replacement for minis, not for fog of war. Personally, I think that they're great, which I didn't anticipate at all.

#3
See #2.

#4
Yes: they feel kind of cheap, however, I'd like to point out that they've never failed to produce a result for me when rolled, nor have they crumbled to dust, burst into flames, or disappeared into the ether. So, they could be better, but they work just fine.

I suggest giving the game some plays. I suspect that once you do, you will forget about its minor shortcomings in production value. Enjoy!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A S
United States
Unspecified
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What Phil said -- and I also love the blocks at this point. They contain the extra level of information this game was really well, and they catch the feel of marching ranks of infantry, too. I like them a lot -- they also have cool, color pictures of the unit types, rather than generic, single-color plastic pieces.

At this point, I think I prefer the pieces in Ancients to those in Memoir.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
George Kinney
United States
Bellefontaine
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
im sure these have been talked about so if you can, please enlighten me.

1. why did GMT produce this game instead of DOW ? did DOW pass on it or did Mr. Borg pass on them ... i assume something happend, but i would have loved to see the production quality on this game a bit higher. sorry GMT, i love Europe Engulfed, but the quality of CCAG is seriously disappointing.hopefully that will change after i play it a few times.


Dunno. My guess is that DOW wants more variety in their lineup. Ticket To Ride would seem to go counter to that idea, but considering its sale volume, I don't blame them for riding that as long as possible.

Mr. Borg is the only one who knows for sure.

Quote:

2. why are blocks marked on both sides ? i thought the whole idea of blocks was for a fog of war effect.


The 'Commands & Colors' system doesn't include 'fog of war' effects. This isn't a 'block war game' in the usual sense at all. Of course you could choose to play it that way if you want to.

Quote:

3. why are the block used at all ? if youre not going to turn them for damage levels or Fog then why bother ?


Cause they are nicer than pushing chits around? That'd be my guess anyway. At one time GMT had posted that they were going to use cardboard counters for C&C:A, and they didn't get a good reaction to the idea.

And they do represent damage levels, but by removing them, not turning them.

But again, this isn't a 'block war game', its a different style of game that just happens to be produced by a company that makes block games.

This game is very much Memoir'44 with ancient troops, not 'Europe Engulfed' with ancient troops.

Quote:

4. what the HECK is with these dice ? these are pathetic, was there a reason they went with this design ?


This is the bit that upset me too. These dice are just crap. And to add insult to injury, they didn't even size the stickers so that they'd fit cleanly on them. Assuming they don't just fall apart during use, I wonder how 'fair' they are?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Reeve
Switzerland
St-Légier
Vaud
flag msg tools
badge
Looking for a game session in Switzerland? Send me a pm!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't find the material quality that low.
The map could be thicker - but I place a plexiglas psheet on it (and I am glad that the hex tiles are thinner than in MM44 or BC because they fit well under the plexiglass).
The dice... well, one gets used to them - not worse than BC ones.
The blocks : I really do like them!
Having wooden material in a game gives it a better feeling than plastic or cardboard : I even prefer them to the M44 miniatures - at least they all hold easily in a hex.

The fog of war thing is not a good argument, IMHO, as ancient battles were fought with a full vision of the enemy (usually... and Special Rules are there to simulate occasional ambushes or surprise).

I find the cards well done.

Now, everybody has different tastes.
I am a boardgamer, not a miniaturist : I am more interested in the game's mechanics than in aesthetical details...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1. From my understanding the Ancients version of Commands and colors is actually older than most of the other versions, including the Civil War (Published as Battle Cry by Hasbro), the WW2 version (published as Memoir'44 by DOW), and the unpublished Mexican American War, Napoleonic War, and Medievel versions. My understanding is that because of its complexity and the very high cost to produce it with minis (due to the large number of unit types) most companies had already passed on C & C Ancients. DOW likely passed for both these reasons AND so it wouldn't produce a product which competes with its existing Memoir line.

2. Actually, the whole idea of blocks in this game was as an affordable minis replacement. For the first year of its life on the GMT P500 the plan was to produce the game using cardboard standups. Then last year they came up with the much better plan of wooden blocks with stickers. The reason for not using plastic miniatures was economics. The main cost of plastic miniatures like in Memoir is actually for the sculpts and the molds. These molds are used over and over to produce the game and make the minis affordable. While Memoir could get away with only 3 different molds per army, the Ancients game has 13 different unit types. While no doubt some figures could pull double duty using the same cardboard marker system as that used to make standard infantry into "French resistance" troops in Memoir, the game would still require a very large upfront investment to make the molds that could only be recouped if the game print one was considerably larger than that for C & C Ancients.

3. As discussed above, the blocks were chosen only as mini replacements to make the production of the game possible. Fog of war is not part of Mr. Borg's system.

4. Consimworld posts indicate that GMT was just as upset about the dice quality as you are. My understanding is that they ordered the dice thinking they were getting the same heavy black plastic dice as used in Battlecry. In fact if you look at the dice they LOOK identical. They evidently received the dice in December and were surprised by their light weight. This left them with the decision of delaying the game for several months why they procured replacement dice and completely pissing off the 1100 people that had already been charged for the game in November as part of the P500 process or of shipping the game with the lightweight dice. While I think that we would have all preferred the heavier dice, I think that it was a much wiser business decision not to piss of everyone who had already been charged for the game. My hope is that expansion will include upgraded dice.

While I have personally have no complaints about the blocks, I replaced my dice immediately.



I'd also like to add that the gameplay itself is great. I think that it is superior to both Memoir and Battle Cry in this respect. If this is the only way that it could get a published, then so be it.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan O'Rourke
United States
Tobyhanna
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
May I ask, what everyone decided on as the best decision for dice replacements? I ordered the white Doom dice, as someone suggested they were the same as the Battle cry dice. They have a nice feel and weight, but they are smaller than the plastic ones that came with C&C:A. I would prefer the same thing in that size. I painted them black, anyway, and will use them until I find a better replacement.

I had wanted to order the Star wars: the queen's gambit dice, but they were out of stock.

Ryan
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Do you have any dice that do burst into flames? I think it might be kinda 'cool'...best if they weren't consumed in the process
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gotthard Heinrici (prev. Graf Strachwitz)
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Jeremy,

There have been lots of treads going about the topic.

Anyhow:
1) ...dunno

2) you have been brainwashed by columbia games too (like me). it was never intended to be fog of war: it is a GMT games that happened to have blocks in stead of miniatures (I have put stickers on one side so I can choose: fog of war Or not!).

3) Well, you could as well have one block that you turn each time it looses a step. I personally LOVE the little blocks.

4)The dice....aren't they unique? different? But yeah, they SUCK!

Just look at everything from the positive side and don't compare it to Columbia games systems, that is totally different. Think at the blocks of miniatures!

The dice should get an oscar for....zombie


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kurt Rompot
United States
Iowa City
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to humbly suggest that GMT throw in some new dice with the first expansion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
im sure these have been talked about so if you can, please enlighten me.


Did you make any effort to see if there were already discussions on these topics? I don't mean to dump on you, but there are already 143 threads on this game, several on the dice alone. The Fog of War issue has already been discussed several times.

As to GMT publishing this game instead of WoW. I don't know the timing, But Richard Borg has been working on the C&C games for a long time. Longer than WoW has been around. He has gone to multiple game companies. AH (Hasbro) published Battle Cry, one of the simpler versions based on one of the best selling topics in wargaming. WoW, which is also a French company, published M'44, timed to coincide with the aniversary of the events.

GMT has an extensive series of games on ancient battles, and are interested in broadening their line to appeal to more gamers. See the new interview by Tom Vassel with Andy Lewis for details. so it made sense for them to publish it.

WoW may never publish another game like this, however many people prefer their components to the GMT components. It may make more sense for them to release expansions for M'44 than to produce what would be a competing game. GMT is probably already commited to a C&C:A expansion, and is more likely to be interested in other games of the series. And best of all, gamers have a say in what they actually publish.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Day
Wales
Llandrindod Wells
Powys
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Now, personally I like toys games

Perhaps someone could elighten me. People like Revell, Italeri, HAT, Zvezda, etc produce 1/72nd minis by the bucketload and have existing ranges. No modelling required, no tooling, an existing branded product.

Have the game producers approached these companies -

"Hey guys, we have this great game - how about we buy your minis and ship them with the game with a big sticker on the box saying 'Contains 200 Revell(or whoever) accurately scaled minatures'. That way we would both benefit and Mr. Punter could buy more of your great stuff when we put out some more rules and terrain pieces"

Would they say no? Italeri and Zvezda produce their own wargames I know but even so.............

Most likely been tried but I can dream

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jeremy cobert
United States
cedar rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:

Did you make any effort to see if there were already discussions on these topics? I don't mean to dump on you, but there are already 143 threads on this game, several on the dice alone. The Fog of War issue has already been discussed several times.


no i did not, that is the great part of being ME, i ask nicely and people provide me with the answers i seek. so as tom vasel would say.... SHUT UP!
damn i hate internet blow hards. please crawl back under your rock.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sight Reader
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:


1. why did GMT produce this game instead of DOW ?

Personally, I think this game is much more appropriate to the wargame oriented GMT crowd than to the euro/mainstream DOW crowd. The only thing mainstream about this title to me is the short play length; otherwise, I'd consider both the subject and the rules too specialized for the DOW crowd, although I'm sure you could find exceptions ad nauseum.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Brown
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Welcome to C&C:Ancients 101
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Brooks
United States
Freeport
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
pauld895 wrote:
Now, personally I like toys games

Perhaps someone could elighten me. People like Revell, Italeri, HAT, Zvezda, etc produce 1/72nd minis by the bucketload and have existing ranges. No modelling required, no tooling, an existing branded product.

Have the game producers approached these companies -

"Hey guys, we have this great game - how about we buy your minis and ship them with the game with a big sticker on the box saying 'Contains 200 Revell(or whoever) accurately scaled minatures'. That way we would both benefit and Mr. Punter could buy more of your great stuff when we put out some more rules and terrain pieces"

Would they say no? Italeri and Zvezda produce their own wargames I know but even so.............

Most likely been tried but I can dream



I think GMT actually did contact a few miniature companies, but no one was interested - I had the same thoughts a few years ago and asked one of the guys at GMT, and he (can't remember if it was Andy or Tony) said there was not interest from any of the manufactures they spoke with.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I think GMT actually did contact a few miniature companies, but no one was interested

Yes, but that was before knowing the game would be a complete success...


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antigonus Monophthalmus
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I have to say the blocks are the reason why I ordered this game. I knew nothing about it other than Memoir '44 was an acceptable (though not worth buying) game, and I simply adored the blocks and topic.

This is now of course a "10" game for me
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A S
United States
Unspecified
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pauld895 wrote:
Now, personally I like toys games

Perhaps someone could elighten me. People like Revell, Italeri, HAT, Zvezda, etc produce 1/72nd minis by the bucketload and have existing ranges. No modelling required, no tooling, an existing branded product.


I do prefer the blocks, tho'. They're nice and tactile (and stand up) like minis, but they carry more information and look very nice.

That said, I also enjoy the minis in M44 and War of the Ring. But I think I'd also really like a version of M44 with slightly more unit variety and blocks with images -- imagine nice standups showing Shermans, T-34s, Matildas, Panzer IIIs and IVs, etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Daglish
United Kingdom
Cheadle
Cheshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
1. why did GMT produce this game instead of DOW ? did DOW pass on it or did Mr. Borg pass on them ... i assume something happend, but i would have loved to see the production quality on this game a bit higher. sorry GMT, i love Europe Engulfed, but the quality of CCAG is seriously disappointing.hopefully that will change after i play it a few times.


A game like CCA would sit uneasily alongside stuff like Ticket to Ride, Shadows over Camelot, and Pirates Cove. Memoir 44 has enough crap design features to appeal to DoW and the general market, but has anyone forgotten the droopy barrels, the triple-parked tanks that don't fit the hexes, the joke guns, the cartoon card art, the wrong Panzer IV and the faux-metal boardedge effect?

2. why are blocks marked on both sides ? i thought the whole idea of blocks was for a fog of war effect.

How can you play CCA without knowing the unit types you are facing?



3. why are the block used at all ? if youre not going to turn them for damage levels or Fog then why bother ?

The choice is between original artwork with wood, or plastic. Lets avoid droopy sarissas. The blocks seem a better size and present a clearer picture than the figures of the previous games, and you're not going to be able to paint to the same standard as the sticker artwork.

4. what the HECK is with these dice ? these are pathetic, was there a reason they went with this design ?

I imagine the screw up was with the dice seller and not GMT. The replacement dice I am using are a bit too weighty to roll well, and would be best used in a heavy-duty dice tower. It might be that the GMT dice roll better, but they'll definitely need a few coats of a clear enamel to protect the trimmed stickers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
SHUT UP!
damn i hate internet blow hards. please crawl back under your rock.



Self hatred is such a sad thing.

But then, so is self adulation.
Quote:
That's the great thing about being ME.


Which is to say, "I'm self-centered and don't care if I'm being redundant because, after all, I don't have time to see if things are covered-- I expect to my beginner level questions to be more important than anyone else's." Allen phrased his statement/question politely and perhaps thought he was informing a newbie (which is what you act like) that there are other places to start in the forum other than "create my own thread."

On top of that, he also made an effort to answer and discuss your question anyway, but it looks as though you only focused on being outraged and insulting.

What's fortunate for you is that C&C actually does play pretty well solo. It's not nearly as much fun, but it is fun.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:

1. why did GMT produce this game instead of DOW ? did DOW pass on it or did Mr. Borg pass on them ... i assume something happend, but i would have loved to see the production quality on this game a bit higher. sorry GMT, i love Europe Engulfed, but the quality of CCAG is seriously disappointing.hopefully that will change after i play it a few times.

3. why are the block used at all ? if youre not going to turn them for damage levels or Fog then why bother ?

4. what the HECK is with these dice ? these are pathetic, was there a reason they went with this design ?

i am not trying to bash GMT, im just a bit suprised with this.

Well, I got my game this week (9 weeks to get to France!). I have to say that reading for months all that you guys said about each component of the game, I knew what I was going to get. I own Memoir44, so I couldn't avoid comparison for some of them:

1) The BOX: waou, even after all the threads about it, I could have never imagined such a thick and brilliant box, really, if you don't own the game go to your local store and touch the BOX!

2) The cards: much thicker than the M44 ones, and the display of the effects seems much clearer (just 1 or 2 need more words to explain). Btw, just the size of the card sleeves I have, which was too wide and short for M44!

3) The blocks/labels: the best!!! Colorful labels, a perfect look on the battlefield, very nice and easy to move 4 blocks at once. True that minis are useful to catch the eye of new gamers or kids, but it was a pleasure not dealing with the bent artillery and so on of M44...

4) And the dice and board... Well, as for many it was the only thing that got me a bit upset when opening, when I saw that even the dice had one side opening and that the board didn't stay flat... BUT: I glued the side of the dice, put the white labels posted here, and tried them on a dice tray, and I think they're fine!!! And the board, I backbended each part and I was happy to see that it remains flat, no need of plexiglass!!! And M44 soldiers may fall on a board which is not completely flat, but not these blocks.

SUMMARY: I was very happy when I finally received it, even happier the day after when I began sticking labels on blocks, and even happier now that the dice and board are not a problem!!! Sad that I finished sticking labels, I realised that I like it... can't wait for the 366 blocks of the expansion!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the blocks, plus the "replacement dice" that GMT is throwing in with the deal.

I'm glad you're pleased with what you got. Now play it! Even if you don't have an opponent, set up the first scenario and play both sides-- just do "your best" with what each hand contains and don't worry about anything else. For solo, I take out the "first strike" card because that is the only one I really have a "problem" with-- anything else works just fine and the excitement level is pretty good. (Better with a real person, but good here.) Playing solo will help you get familiar with the mechanics (and there are a couple things to get used to.)

Just pay attention to evasion rules (who can, who can't, how the attack works) and how far units retreat-- the reference card takes care of you with that information.

Have fun!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.