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Subject: Netrunner rather a tournament game than for casual play? rss

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Nox Noxley
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So there I am, having the core set twice and each pack once but not getting along with the deckbuilding thing.

Each time I think I have got a reasonable deck (either side) I becoming aware of some anti-card, which may render deck-idea to an "useless" element of pure luck.

Lets assume I confront my buddy with my deck the first time. My buddy is caught by surprise on that day and till next game-occassion he thinks there must be cards to improve his chances. Me on the other hand is completely happy with my satisfying (= mostly winning) deck.

What will be happening?! My buddy will include the anti-card/ build an anti-deck while I return with my old winner-deck. This time my buddy teaches me to how to loose properly. What will happen? Right, I am going to make changes in the meantime which make his anti-cards useless. Next time his deck is unchanged while mine is adjusted and the whole cycle starts anew.

Assuming one is being a casual player with rather limited time and being happy to have a rare gamingnight, would this really be a game to recommend?

Is there a way to construct decks that one is not permanently lured into making that little change that favors your deck the next time ("ok, he's playing HB: Let's put some braindamage prevention in.")

If we don't want to build a completely new deck each time before we meet (time is short, remember? ^^), what has to/ can be considered, that games stay balanced?

Tournament play offers no such specific optimizing...
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MGS
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If you only have one opponent, it plays better if at least one of you likes to play a variety of decks. If you are really attached to your deck, it helps if you have at least a couple of variations so your opponent doesn't have perfect information. You should be playing both sides, not necessarily every time but generally speaking.

It is more fun to have a variety of people to play against but is still a lot of fun to play casually with a regular opponent or two. I play my son a lot and we both play a variety of local players and the game works well in both settings.

It is a great game and there is no wrong way of playing it.
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William Frank
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Game balance is a major concern for any non-static card game. Magic has its "sideboard" system, which definitely wouldn't work for Netrunner.

Tournament-level play has to be concerned with the same factors, though. We call it the "meta," generally, short for "metagame." For example, right now in my meta, New York City, as has been true almost since the beginning, Weyland Tag-n-Bag (Weyland big-money that relies on SEA Source and two Scorched Earths to kill the runner, aided perhaps by Project Atlas counters) is popular. So a lot of runners are even more wary of tags, and/or include Plascrete Carapaces. I'm told in other metas Weyland and Plascretes both are not as favored.

It's less knowing what your buddy has per se, and more knowing what's popular in your area and preparing for it.
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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If you scale out a bit from just games between you and your buddy, what you're describing is what's called the meta-game, or just the meta. Plenty of tournament players spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure out what the most popular/hardest to beat deck is going to be, and then designing their own decks to counter.

Really, it's just part of deckbuilding games in general. Personally, I find it much more entertaining than the opposite scenario, where that deck with the satisfying win percentage doesn't have an answer and just keeps winning, forever and ever.

If you and your buddy don't want to always be revising or rebuilding, then you can always agree to stop. The only impetus is your desire to be competitive, so if you can put that aside, you can both decide on a couple of decks that you enjoy and leave them as they are. Highlander decks (no more than one copy of each card) work well for this kind of play, since their randomness will help keep the game varied and lively.
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David Sleaze
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Don´t build one Trick Pony Decks?

Agree on not using total Anti Cards like E3 Implants?
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Ian Nelson
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How about building two or three different decks and switching up when he plays his deck tuned to beat your other deck? Diversity is the spice of life.
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Jonathan Harrison
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We play using a point buy system by which adding cards to or removing cards from your deck costs points you get by winning, and the loser gets half points.
 
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Chris Jackson
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What you're seeing, odd as it may seem, is the formation of a metagame. A two person meta, which is as small as it gets, but a meta all the same.

And larger groups and tournament scenes work exactly the same way. After the Gencon tournament was won with a Kate + Atman + Datasucker deck, everyone started rearranging the ice in their corp decks so that the strengths didn't all line up at 3 or 4. And now with Jackson Howard out, people have been playing less Noise, because he has a harder time.

As for what to do in your specific situation, I would say a couple of things.

1) Bring two decks for each side. This way you and your opponent can't easily build anti-decks, since you don't know exactly what you'll be up against.

2) Make a little sideboard for each deck, and swap cards in and out before you start playing. Say you sideboard some resources for your Andromeda deck so you can alternate between playing pure tag-me and a deck that's able to take advantage of the rush of credits you get from Kati Jones.

Or both, even. It'll take a little more of your time, but it's not as bad as if you were going to rebuild decks from scratch each week.
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Lluluien
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scifantasy wrote:
Game balance is a major concern for any non-static card game. Magic has its "sideboard" system, which definitely wouldn't work for Netrunner.


I agree that I don't think sideboarding would work in a tournament setting for Netrunner simply because there's only time to play one game on each side per opponent (and barely that much time).

In a casual setting though, I think it's not necessarily impossible. Alex had a post a while back about making a few changes in his HB deck to keep a regular opponent on his feet (switching in and out of a Scorched Earth alternate win), and I just recently made a post about making my Edge/Snare NBN Never Advance deck tailored to hate Atman which only relied on switching about 8 cards. I doubt you could set up any pair of Corp/Runner decks to have 2-3 states apiece that you could switch out to psych each other out with, but it's certainly possible that there are some pairs which you could.
 
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Richard Linnell
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Or just make multiple generalist decks. By this I mean try to field several different runner and corp decks that all focus on the heart of the game with 1-2 specific tricks. That is - every corp is based around ICE as the primary method of protection, a mix of asset/resource and operation/event economy, all runners run a full suite of breakers, and then each deck gets its 1-2 tricks, but no deck is hyper specialized to win in one specific way - so don't build a maker's eye/R&D interface/medium deck that will get you a 15 card access on turn 3.
Of course, this only works if both players are using generalist decks. IMO, it makes the game feel more like it "should" feel, with a focus for the corp on playing agendas into remotes and defending them while the runner focuses on trying to break into the remotes and cherry pick from centrals when possible. Sure there is some thrill in putting together an ultimate Fast Advance that just wins, but it gets stale pretty quickly. If you both play these generalist decks, you'll find plenty of room to swap out the little tricks from time to time to incorporate other aspects of the game and keep it fresh.
 
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Peder Bergenwall
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lluluien wrote:
I agree that I don't think sideboarding would work in a tournament setting for Netrunner simply because there's only time to play one game on each side per opponent (and barely that much time).

In a casual setting though, I think it's not necessarily impossible. Alex had a post a while back about making a few changes in his HB deck to keep a regular opponent on his feet (switching in and out of a Scorched Earth alternate win), and I just recently made a post about making my Edge/Snare NBN Never Advance deck tailored to hate Atman which only relied on switching about 8 cards. I doubt you could set up any pair of Corp/Runner decks to have 2-3 states apiece that you could switch out to psych each other out with, but it's certainly possible that there are some pairs which you could.


Could you point me to this hate-Atman-Never Advance deck? I've been looking for something to help me get around the Atman decks I've been encountering with my NBN.
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Eric F
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kollapse wrote:
lluluien wrote:
I agree that I don't think sideboarding would work in a tournament setting for Netrunner simply because there's only time to play one game on each side per opponent (and barely that much time).

In a casual setting though, I think it's not necessarily impossible. Alex had a post a while back about making a few changes in his HB deck to keep a regular opponent on his feet (switching in and out of a Scorched Earth alternate win), and I just recently made a post about making my Edge/Snare NBN Never Advance deck tailored to hate Atman which only relied on switching about 8 cards. I doubt you could set up any pair of Corp/Runner decks to have 2-3 states apiece that you could switch out to psych each other out with, but it's certainly possible that there are some pairs which you could.


Could you point me to this hate-Atman-Never Advance deck? I've been looking for something to help me get around the Atman decks I've been encountering with my NBN.


NBN is generally strong against it. Llu also is the guy who started/updates his NBN Never Advance thread in Strategy, it rarely leaves the front page anymore.

===

Atman has issues with NBN. They need Professional Contacts, and NBN aggressive tags can stop their econ in their tracks. Closed Accounts, resource denial (literally in this game!), is very strong against Atman. MN naturally gets some fun benefits with high-strength efficient ICE, or high-trace low-strenght efficient ICE. Hunter and Draco are the two examples, where it doesn't break the bank to rez, it threatens a variety of things (tags and ETR, for super cheap). ICE Wall is a natural include and counters Datmansucker. If you can repeatedly force them to run remotes for no gain as well, you can force them to spend Datasucker counters while you draw more central defenses and prevent "free" counters from accumulating. Again, if 8-9 of your ICE only costs 1 to rez, but is efficient for you (Hunter/Draco/Ice Wall), then you can shotgun it in a wide-spread to stop Datmansucker.
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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We actually play original Netrunner, but the system could be ported over to A:NR with reference not to card rarity but, say, to the factioning system or card cost or both: you can find the specifics of our system here.
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Madd Cow
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As much as silver bullets can hurt Corp, it's really only the Jinteki hate cards (Net Shield, Feedback Filter, and Deus X) that really grind a corp to a halt. Tag N Bag decks can still work around plascrete and crash space, Haas can use less Bioroids etc... But Jinteki gets the raw end of the stick with hate cards.
 
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Justin
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Even when playing serially with friends, we just have a mutual agreement to build what we consider to be generally competitive decks.

I wouldn't show up at a foreign tournament with 3x E3 Feedback Implants unless the "global" meta had violently shifted toward HB, for example.
 
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Justin
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2097 wrote:
I find this policy difficult to enforce or follow in practice.

Why?
Quote:
And there is a good claim that Deus X is a good card in a foreign tournament if you are already running a bunch of green tutors.

I run 1x Deus X in my Andy and Kate decks. Both have tutors, and they work well against HB and Jinteki.

This isn't a, "don't include hate cards" proposition. I run Plascretes too. It's a, "don't design decks to beat the specific decks your regular opponent has designed" thing. And I think it's really easy to follow: would you want to play your deck, unmodified, in a tournament? If not, you've probably hate-decked your specific opponent.
 
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Pascal Lefebvre
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Why not just design totally random new decks each time you meet? You can potentially do it before the meeting on spare time. I do that all the time (and often on the spot but I have the time), building a new deck out of scratch and hoping it works well against my opponent. This is also quite representative of the tournament format, because decks can vary a lot and you are never prepared against everything at once.

So there is luck, but if you don't stick to two deck archetypes, you can have tons of fun. It's a game of discovery, and I enjoy that aspect of deckbuilding to meet something you have no information about.
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Dave Sutcliffe
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Nocturnus wrote:
So there I am, having the core set twice and each pack once but not getting along with the deckbuilding thing.

Each time I think I have got a reasonable deck (either side) I becoming aware of some anti-card, which may render deck-idea to an "useless" element of pure luck.

Lets assume I confront my buddy with my deck the first time. My buddy is caught by surprise on that day and till next game-occassion he thinks there must be cards to improve his chances. Me on the other hand is completely happy with my satisfying (= mostly winning) deck.

What will be happening?! My buddy will include the anti-card/ build an anti-deck while I return with my old winner-deck. This time my buddy teaches me to how to loose properly. What will happen? Right, I am going to make changes in the meantime which make his anti-cards useless. Next time his deck is unchanged while mine is adjusted and the whole cycle starts anew.

Assuming one is being a casual player with rather limited time and being happy to have a rare gamingnight, would this really be a game to recommend?

Is there a way to construct decks that one is not permanently lured into making that little change that favors your deck the next time ("ok, he's playing HB: Let's put some braindamage prevention in.")

If we don't want to build a completely new deck each time before we meet (time is short, remember? ^^), what has to/ can be considered, that games stay balanced?

Tournament play offers no such specific optimizing...


Limit the maximum number of copies of a card. That means you and your opponents decks will be less focused, so your winning deck is more balanced and less vulnerable to his anti-deck, and his anti-deck is less effective at neutering your winning deck.

You could say 2 copies of a card only, or 2 cards are allowed 3 copies the rest must be 1-of, whatever rule you feel works for you and your friend that will sit your deck building style.
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