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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: SRs After Russian Surrender rss

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Jersey Guys
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Here is another fairly uncommon situation that may come up in our latest game, and I don't see a rule pertaining to it. If Russia is forced to surrender, can Axis units SR along a path that would have them pass adjacent to the defeated Russian units that are placed on the still-held Russian objective hexes (Rule 26.921)?
I would think yes they can, because the Russian units are simply markers now and not fighting units. But would love to get everyone's thoughts on it. As always, thanks in advance.
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Steve Carter
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Rule 16.2 states:

Any SR'ed unit (ground, air, or naval) may not be adjacent to nor pass adjacent to any enemy unit including air, naval, airbase counter, and partisan at the start, end, or at any point of its SR.

Since Russia is no longer an "enemy" once it surrenders, I would say that Axis units may pass adjacent to them during the SR phase.
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Doug Poskitt
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tallracer333 wrote:
Rule 16.2 states:

Any SR'ed unit (ground, air, or naval) may not be adjacent to nor pass adjacent to any enemy unit including air, naval, airbase counter, and partisan at the start, end, or at any point of its SR.

Since Russia is no longer an "enemy" once it surrenders, I would say that Axis units may pass adjacent to them during the SR phase.


There may be grounds for caution here.

The rules state that the Russian-controlled objectives still count in the Allied objective totals ... thus if the objective hexes are "Allied controlled", can one simply treat the Russian units as "invisible"?

I'm not arguing one way or the other, but once again, the mistress of subterfuge (the Third Reich rule set) rears her head ...
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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I agree it is an ambiguous situation. I have always read it as the "Russian units" simply representing marks, which denote Allied (Russian) control of objectives, and the inability of the Axis to take them. Do they function in any way as actual combat units? If so, what is the selection process? I.e. how are the units chosen? Who chooses them? Do they have to be chosen from units on the map at the time? I think there has to be some consistency, i.e. if they are treated as enemy combat units for purposes of denying Axis SR adjacent to them, then they must also be combat units for other purposes. That assumption raises a number of other questions. I think simply treating them as "markers" denoting control of the objectives, and not as actual combat units for any purpose is the "cleaner" solution.
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Doug Poskitt
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deadkenny wrote:
I agree it is an ambiguous situation. I have always read it as the "Russian units" simply representing marks, which denote Allied (Russian) control of objectives, and the inability of the Axis to take them. Do they function in any way as actual combat units? If so, what is the selection process? I.e. how are the units chosen? Who chooses them? Do they have to be chosen from units on the map at the time? I think there has to be some consistency, i.e. if they are treated as enemy combat units for purposes of denying Axis SR adjacent to them, then they must also be combat units for other purposes. That assumption raises a number of other questions. I think simply treating them as "markers" denoting control of the objectives, and not as actual combat units for any purpose is the "cleaner" solution.


Agreed. It certainly is the "cleaner" solution. However, they are Russian units, they are physically present on the mapboard, and there is the basic tenet of rule 16 that states SRs may not pass adjacent to enemy units ... and nowhere in the rules have I come across the notion of "marker units" - that is an assumption as to their status, not a RaW.

Tricky one this ... House Rule anyone?
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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dougposkitt wrote:
Agreed. It certainly is the "cleaner" solution. However, they are Russian units, they are physically present on the mapboard, and there is the basic tenet of rule 16 that states SRs may not pass adjacent to enemy units ... and nowhere in the rules have I come across the notion of "marker units" - that is an assumption as to their status, not a RaW.

Tricky one this ... House Rule anyone?


I'm not yet convinced that interpretation of the RaW is fruitless. I accept that they are actually Russian units. However, note that in the context being discussed, Russia has surrendered and therefore is no longer "at war" with the Axis. Note that 16.2 requires there to be a state of war in order for the units to be considered "enemy units". The objective hexes occupied by "Russian units" remain controlled by Russia, however, no other hexes are. The Axis are not allowed to declare war on Russia, the Wallies cannot declare war on Russia so there is no way for those "Russian units" to actively participate in the game. So while technically you might argue that they remain "Russian units", that distinction makes no practical difference.
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Timothy B.
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The objectives may be counted toward Allied victory conditions, but the units themselves are neutral, and not enemy units. Thus you can move next to them.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Perhaps under the category of "unintended consequences" is that, if they really are "Russian units", then with the exceptions of Leningrad and Moscow they would be oos. Any ground units placed would therefore be eliminated at the end of the first full turn following surrender. Of course I suppose theoretically the Russian player could place air units instead.
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craig grinnell
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Wow... The answers here, while well thought and indepth, kinda drifted off of the original question by the end...
Anyways... I really can't foresee an instance when.this event might happen.
Russian objectives aren't close enough together to prevent an SR between them and there's really nothing barring the SR through open "white space" that generally fills the rest of Russia.
And even if so, just walk them around the blocking unit and then SR it.
For all practical purposes, Germany owns all of Russia upon surrender EXCEPT those objectives.

Just my opinion, which usually gets argued down in this particular forum anyway
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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grinnell1969 wrote:
Wow... The answers here, while well thought and indepth, kinda drifted off of the original question by the end...
Anyways... I really can't foresee an instance when.this event might happen.
Russian objectives aren't close enough together to prevent an SR between them and there's really nothing barring the SR through open "white space" that generally fills the rest of Russia.
And even if so, just walk them around the blocking unit and then SR it.
For all practical purposes, Germany owns all of Russia upon surrender EXCEPT those objectives.

Just my opinion, which usually gets argued down in this particular forum anyway


I'm not sure I drifted off the original question with my comments at the end. If the Russian units placed on objectives die off due to lack of supply following surrender, they won't be around to interfere with SR.

Anyway, unlike other conquests, by explicit rule the Germans do NOT gain control of hexes in Russia they do not already have control of. They presumably become controlled by no one, as neither does Russia control them any longer after surrender. I agree, it's not a situation that's likely to come up all the time, however, it could in theory impact the redeployment of Axis units inside Russia immediately following the surrender - e.g. a group of armoured units deep inside Russia that had been cutting supply which killed off a group of Russian units which then triggered the surrender.
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Steve Carter
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dougposkitt wrote:
However, they are Russian units, they are physically present on the mapboard, and there is the basic tenet of rule 16 that states SRs may not pass adjacent to enemy units ...

My point above is that the RaW states that the SR restriction only applies to enemy units. After Russia surrenders, it is no longer an "enemy" so its units marking the strategic cities are not "enemy" units. There is nothing in the RaW that states that the Western Allies "control" the hex. The rule simply states that the hexes count as Allied for victory purposes.
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Jersey Guys
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Hello. I am glad that we sparked a lot of conversation about this situation, which as people point out is rare. My thoughts were along the lines of Deadkenny -- how does this affect SRs? The main rub is that the Axis only control the hexes it has captured before the fall of Russia, so if an advanced tank's sole route back west passes adjacent to a Russian-controlled hex and we consider the units therein enemy units that could delay the tanks redeployment until another route can be opened up. What if the objective hex had been empty at the time the Russians fell and the unit was placed at that point simply to mark it as Allied controlled? In such a case, that would seem to give a benefit to the Allies that they didn't earn.

Also, here's another thought: If the Russian units are considered enemy units after surrender, could the Allies place armor units on the Russian objective hexes and cut off supply routes that run adjacent to those hexes? That would seem to be unfair.

Fortunately, our next session isn't until Sept. 28 so we have some time to mull this over. Thanks much for the input so far, and we would love to hear any other thoughts that may occur.
 
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craig grinnell
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Back to my original thought... The surrender rules state that, while Germany in fact doesn't "own" Russian white space, they can move freely through Russian territory and since no Russian objectives are close enough together to bar SR, this situation couldn't actually arise.
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Patrick Bauer
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grinnell1969 wrote:
Back to my original thought... The surrender rules state that, while Germany in fact doesn't "own" Russian white space, they can move freely through Russian territory and since no Russian objectives are close enough together to bar SR, this situation couldn't actually arise.


Sure it is: Germany orchestrates a double turn losing the breakthrough armor on the second turn, Russia then moves and surrenders. Here's what the start of the first post-Russian surrender Axis turn looks like:



DQB 26.921 Do non-objective hexes pass automatically to Axis control when Russia surrenders?

A. No, but the Axis units can pass through them unimpeded ( on other than a Pass Option) and extend their control. They can never, of course, control the Soviet-occupied objectives.


There is no way for these German units to clear the non-objective hexes to avoid the situation in SR.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Further to Patrick's point, we have

Quote:
16.2 Units SR‘ed by land may move only over controlled, supplied hexes...


[underline added].

So Germany cannot simply SR over the "white space". It is not sufficient that the hexes are not controlled by the enemy, they must be controlled by your side.
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Steve Carter
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deadkenny wrote:
Further to Patrick's point, we have

Quote:
16.2 Units SR‘ed by land may move only over controlled, supplied hexes...


[underline added].

So Germany cannot simply SR over the "white space". It is not sufficient that the hexes are not controlled by the enemy, they must be controlled by your side.

Correct. So this brings us back to the original question:
After Russian surrender, does a Russian combat unit in a strategic city prevent an Axis unit from SR movement through an adjacent hex?
The rule for SR movement (16.2) only restricts movement adjacent to an "enemy" unit. By definition, since Russia has surrendered, it is no longer an enemy. By inference, the combat unit that "marks" the strategic objective hex is not an enemy combat unit.

So, if the combat unit by definition is not an "enemy," why would it prevent adjacent SR movement? Per the Russian surrender rule, the objective hex belongs to the US/Britain. This implies Allied "control" of the hex in order to be counted as an Allied objective. Does that hex control transform the neutral Russian combat unit into an "enemy" unit? My opinion is no. There is nothing in the RaW that states this, and enforcing this interpretation as an inference is a bridge too far for me.

But maybe not for anyone else.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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tallracer333 wrote:
.... Per the Russian surrender rule, the objective hex belongs to the US/Britain. This implies Allied "control" of the hex in order to be counted as an Allied objective. Does that hex control transform the neutral Russian combat unit into an "enemy" unit? My opinion is no. There is nothing in the RaW that states this, and enforcing this interpretation as an inference is a bridge too far for me.

But maybe not for anyone else.


Actually the rule states:

Quote:
26.921 If the Axis accept the surrender, each objective hex not yet in Axis control has a Russian unit placed on it; these objective hexes count toward Russian/Allied victory conditions at the end of the scenario....


[underline added]

So I read it as the objectives remaining Russian, only counting toward the Allied total in a two player game. If Russia is/was a separate player, the objectives do not count towards US/British victory. Otherwise I agree, Russia in a sense assumes the same status as Russia prior to entering the war in the first place. Thus, according to 16.2 their units do not count as "enemy" for purposes of SR.
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Steve Carter
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deadkenny wrote:
Actually the rule states:

Quote:
26.921 If the Axis accept the surrender, each objective hex not yet in Axis control has a Russian unit placed on it; these objective hexes count toward Russian/Allied victory conditions at the end of the scenario....


[underline added]

So I read it as the objectives remaining Russian, only counting toward the Allied total in a two player game. If Russia is/was a separate player, the objectives do not count towards US/British victory. Otherwise I agree, Russia in a sense assumes the same status as Russia prior to entering the war in the first place. Thus, according to 16.2 their units do not count as "enemy" for purposes of SR.

Kenny, that is a good point. I guess it pays to read all of the rules, if you can find them in all the right places.
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Jersey Guys
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Hello, gentlemen. Thanks for all the input. Russia has indeed fallen, and Field Marshall Roe and I have agreed that the Russian units placed on the country's remaining objective hexes will have no effect on SRs.
 
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