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Subject: Lack of trading in CoC rss

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Raph Moimoi
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I'm fond of Clash Of Cultures, I already played some games and I find there's a lack of trading during the game, nothing makes players trade. Thematically, civs were trading a lot and I don't feel this in the game cry The only things that make players do some trading are event cards, but I think it's not suffiscent.

Yesterday I played Sid Meier'sCiv (FFG 2010) for the first time and I was surprised it didn't had some trading mechanism either... is it a lack in all the new 4X games ?! We played the whole game without trading anything.
This game has some flaws compared to CoC, but they together have one concerning trading !

Mare Nostrum forces all players to trade between each other, this adds long minutes and it may not be the best way to include trading, but I'd like CoC would have some gimmick to make players trade, maybe force each player to trade at least once each turn. For example, a player which owns a market (or whith a city in which he has some influence) may be able to force one adversary to trade (1:1) during his turn, or something like that.

Will there be some improvements for trading in the expansion ? It would be great !
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Noel Mitchell
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I love player trading (e.g. AH Civilization) but it does tend to slow down games a lot. Clash of Cultures has abstracted it with several of the technologies that represent trade (both land and sea), to give benefits to your society. I think that works pretty well and doesn't slow down the game - I agree that even though players can trade directly among themselves it's pretty rare.
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Chris Casinghino
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Pikaraph wrote:

Yesterday I played Sid Meier's Civ (FFG 2010) for the first time and I was surprised it didn't had some trading mechanism either... is it a lack in all the new 4X games ?! We played the whole game without trading anything.
This game has some flaws compared to CoC, but they together have one concerning trading !


I think if you play Sid Meier's Civ more, you'll find players trading much more frequently. Among experienced players it's very common to exchange trade points in the early rounds to hit the research requirements. In later rounds, players often swap resources to make use of various techs, or cards to effectively gang up on a player who is getting close to winning. But this game has so much going on that it's hard to see opportunities to trade in your first few games.

I haven't seen much trading in Clash of Cultures, but then I've only played it 5 times. We like Sid Meier's Civ a lot better, so CoC hasn't been getting to the table much.
 
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Christian Marcussen
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Pikaraph wrote:
I'm fond of Clash Of Cultures, I already played some games and I find there's a lack of trading during the game, nothing makes players trade. Thematically, civs were trading a lot and I don't feel this in the game cry The only things that make players do some trading are event cards, but I think it's not suffiscent.

Yesterday I played Sid Meier'sCiv (FFG 2010) for the first time and I was surprised it didn't had some trading mechanism either... is it a lack in all the new 4X games ?! We played the whole game without trading anything.
This game has some flaws compared to CoC, but they together have one concerning trading !

Mare Nostrum forces all players to trade between each other, this adds long minutes and it may not be the best way to include trading, but I'd like CoC would have some gimmick to make players trade, maybe force each player to trade at least once each turn. For example, a player which owns a market (or whith a city in which he has some influence) may be able to force one adversary to trade (1:1) during his turn, or something like that.

Will there be some improvements for trading in the expansion ? It would be great !


No. Trading has deliberately been left out and abstracted with Trade Routes to keep playing time down, and due to the need of not doing everything. So I chose to focus on the things that interested be the most; techs, exploration, and empire/city growth.

Clash of Cultures: Civilizations will not change that. But I can see how a trade mechanism could be part of an expansion, but for the base game I had to focus hard

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marqzen wrote:
Pikaraph wrote:
I'm fond of Clash Of Cultures, I already played some games and I find there's a lack of trading during the game, nothing makes players trade. Thematically, civs were trading a lot and I don't feel this in the game cry The only things that make players do some trading are event cards, but I think it's not suffiscent.

Yesterday I played Sid Meier'sCiv (FFG 2010) for the first time and I was surprised it didn't had some trading mechanism either... is it a lack in all the new 4X games ?! We played the whole game without trading anything.
This game has some flaws compared to CoC, but they together have one concerning trading !

Mare Nostrum forces all players to trade between each other, this adds long minutes and it may not be the best way to include trading, but I'd like CoC would have some gimmick to make players trade, maybe force each player to trade at least once each turn. For example, a player which owns a market (or whith a city in which he has some influence) may be able to force one adversary to trade (1:1) during his turn, or something like that.

Will there be some improvements for trading in the expansion ? It would be great !


But I can see how a trade mechanism could be part of an expansion, but for the base game I had to focus hard



this seems to be a good news for the next expansion !

because i agree that some trading possibilities (even simple) are missing.
 
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Jeff Pratt
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You might only be talking about traditional trade goods, as in the economic sort...but there is also free trading of mood, culture, money and resources in the game. There is only a slight blurb about it in the rulebook, so you might have missed it. We did. It doesn't turn the game into Merchants and Marauders, but once you know it's there you will find opportunities to use it...particularly in regards to defensive alliances, where other players can help a weaker Civ survive an aggresssive player that is going for a military win by eliminating someone and ending the game early!
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Christian Marcussen
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What kind of trade system would you find fun?
 
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Raph Moimoi
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marqzen wrote:


No. Trading has deliberately been left out and abstracted with Trade Routes to keep playing time down, and due to the need of not doing everything. So I chose to focus on the things that interested be the most; techs, exploration, and empire/city growth.

Clash of Cultures: Civilizations will not change that. But I can see how a trade mechanism could be part of an expansion, but for the base game I had to focus hard



Good news !
 
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Christian Marcussen
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Pikaraph wrote:
marqzen wrote:


No. Trading has deliberately been left out and abstracted with Trade Routes to keep playing time down, and due to the need of not doing everything. So I chose to focus on the things that interested be the most; techs, exploration, and empire/city growth.

Clash of Cultures: Civilizations will not change that. But I can see how a trade mechanism could be part of an expansion, but for the base game I had to focus hard



Good news !


Woa wait... what is good news? CoC: Civilizations will NOT introduce any trading. Just to be clear. But I can see it being a fun element to add at some point, if that is what you mean

But hardly "news"
 
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J. Mowery
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Personally, I find trading and negotiating a bit exhausting and time consuming (in almost any game). Clash of Cultures is just fine without it in my opinion, but I can see how some would like it.

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Simon H
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For me, it's fine as is. The trade route techs give a good feel for the fact you created a trading nation.
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Colin Sham
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shaldon wrote:
For me, it's fine as is. The trade route techs give a good feel for the fact you created a trading nation.


I find them amusing -- I'll have just finished an exchange of cities with an opponent, a couple armies here or there dead, and then to start the turn... "and I get 3 gold for trading with my good friend, thanks for the new city btw!".
 
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Andy Day

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I find any civ building game like this which lacks trade lacks interesting diplomacy. I've played a few games of CoC-and enjoyed it-but never find myself making alliances and cutting deals. Which I enjoy.
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Raph Moimoi
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marqzen wrote:


Woa wait... what is good news? CoC: Civilizations will NOT introduce any trading. Just to be clear. But I can see it being a fun element to add at some point, if that is what you mean

But hardly "news"


Good news about another expansion laugh
...and that you have some idea about trading.

With the rules as they are now, trading interaction is limited to asking goods to anyone who kindly wants to trade, it nearly never happens as opponents do not want to give an advantage to others (even if they win something in the deal...), and the other way is asking some goods to avoid war ("give me 1 gold or I crush your neaby city sauron ")


Some thoughts :
- finding a way to have some interaction that pushes players to exchange goods (to be able to build or others things) : each tile produces a type of good that is only existing here (and maybe on another tile but not more) --> player which needs this particular good has to trade with the owner with some rules to keeps the thing "sexy"

Other gimmick : having some caravan token that forces the opponent which is near the caravan to trade with the caravan owner : at least 1 good must be exchanged each turn, the caravan owner chooses what he wants, but must give 1 good that the other wants or 2 goods he doesn't want.

Maybe adding buildings for the city as "Market" or "Bank" to give some advantages in trading would be good.
 
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Derry Salewski
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Real cultures trade because there isn't a winner declared after two hours.

It's just not very realistic for games like this. Hey, want to give me something I need to win? Um, no not really, how about this thing you don't really need too much? Oh um, no, but can I interest you in this thing you don't want? Well, no but how about some of that other stuff that will let me beat you? Erm . . .

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Anthony Rubbo
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marqzen wrote:
No. Trading has deliberately been left out and abstracted with Trade Routes to keep playing time down


Page 14 details rules surrounding Free Trading, however...I seem to be not understanding something here.
 
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Adam Hoffman
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Pikaraph wrote:
Yesterday I played Sid Meier'sCiv (FFG 2010) for the first time and I was surprised it didn't had some trading mechanism either... is it a lack in all the new 4X games ?!


As I recall, SMC has a trade mechanism, but we didn't use it very much. I've wanted to use it to trade away unneeded Trade when I was going to buy a Technology, but it's just requires too much math to plan for the production needs of three cities with scouts and everything. I really appreciate that COC does not require so much counting.

By contrast, we probably trade about once every other turn in COC (except for two player games, which have almost no trading). Players mostly trade cards. Players will swap objectives that they will never finish and action cards that are difficult to use (e.g. one where you need a nearby neighbor). Also, players will often trade resources to help another player under attack. Finally, sometimes players will trade gold to keep from going over the limit due to trade routes or taxation.

I think the biggest incentives against trading in 4X games like this is that they tend to have a small number of players (which makes the trades more zero-sum), and the players are already overwhelmed with options before considering the additional options that become available when trading opportunities are considered.

marqzen wrote:
What kind of trade system would you find fun?


I think being able to trade with barbarians would be fun. In general, I would like more options for peaceful interaction with barbarians.
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Christian Marcussen
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LemonyFresh wrote:
marqzen wrote:
No. Trading has deliberately been left out and abstracted with Trade Routes to keep playing time down


Page 14 details rules surrounding Free Trading, however...I seem to be not understanding something here.


Ok. Let me refrase. I delieberately did not design a trade system requireing eleborate seperate mechanics. But just a simple free for all trade.
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Brent Wilson
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marqzen wrote:
LemonyFresh wrote:
marqzen wrote:
No. Trading has deliberately been left out and abstracted with Trade Routes to keep playing time down


Page 14 details rules surrounding Free Trading, however...I seem to be not understanding something here.


Ok. Let me refrase. I delieberately did not design a trade system requireing eleborate seperate mechanics. But just a simple free for all trade.


I love the free for all trade system and see it used in almost every game.
 
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Kevin Rohrer
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Pikaraph wrote:
Yesterday I played Sid Meier'sCiv (FFG 2010) for the first time and I was surprised it didn't had some trading mechanism either... is it a lack in all the new 4X games ?! We played the whole game without trading anything.


Re-read the rules. SMC has a Trade Phase where almost anything can be traded, and non-binding agreements made. If your games had no trading in them, it was the fault of the players, not the game. shake
 
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