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Letters from Whitechapel» Forums » General

Subject: Easy / Hard hideout starts for Jack rss

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Steve W
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edit: A web-based random hideout generator is at http://houseforjack.site88.net/. Currently the generator only supports two modes: no red circles, and no red circles or circles adjacent to them. If you have access to an iOS device and are interested in a more fully featured app, I strongly suggest you check out the official app.

Hello all,

Daks and I have been working on our own hideout generator for Jack, as we are both Android users. We have a generator for "normal" starts (ie. including everything other than red circles). However I was wondering if anyone has good lists for what they would consider "easy" or "hard" starts?

We will make it available for everyone when it's done.
 
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Don D.
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MrThud wrote:
Hello all,

Daks and I have been working on our own hideout generator for Jack, as we are both Android users. We have a generator for "normal" starts (ie. including everything other than red circles). However I was wondering if anyone has good lists for what they would consider "easy" or "hard" starts?

We will make it available for everyone when it's done.


Why would you do this? You apparently know that an app already exists. I assume you also know the propietor of it has the legal rights to make an app and you do not. You are deliberately undercutting the RIGHTFUL owners' of the IP ability to make money. Really poor move. Don't be surprised to receive your cease and desist letter in the mail either.
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Mc Jarvis
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dond80 wrote:
You apparently know that an app already exists.


I know about the one for IOS, but does one already exist for Android?
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Don D.
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McJarvis wrote:
dond80 wrote:
You apparently know that an app already exists.


I know about the one for IOS, but does one already exist for Android?


Only iOS.
 
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Chuckhazard
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dond80 wrote:
MrThud wrote:
Hello all,

Daks and I have been working on our own hideout generator for Jack, as we are both Android users. We have a generator for "normal" starts (ie. including everything other than red circles). However I was wondering if anyone has good lists for what they would consider "easy" or "hard" starts?

We will make it available for everyone when it's done.


Why would you do this? You apparently know that an app already exists. I assume you also know the propietor of it has the legal rights to make an app and you do not. You are deliberately undercutting the RIGHTFUL owners' of the IP ability to make money. Really poor move. Don't be surprised to receive your cease and desist letter in the mail either.


First, IANAL, but I think this is incorrect. The makers of LFW have no exclusive rights on an app that takes an input (easy, medium, hard) and spits out a set of numbers. The OP cannot use copyrighted artwork from the game, or lift text verbatim, but that's about it. Of course OP may still receive a C&D, and choose not to fight it due to prohibitive legal costs - but that does not mean OP is infringing.
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Steve W
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The app we are intending to create is not going to have the graphics or the background info on the developers that the formal app has. We will not be using any of the art from the game.

It will be a random number generator from three (or maybe 6) sets of numbers. If an Android app comes out I will be happy to point people towards it, for those who want the additional art and background info features that it offers.
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Don D.
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chuckhazard wrote:

First, IANAL, but I think this is incorrect. The makers of LFW have no exclusive rights on an app that takes an input (easy, medium, hard) and spits out a set of numbers. The OP cannot use copyrighted artwork from the game, or lift text verbatim, but that's about it. Of course OP may still receive a C&D, and choose not to fight it due to prohibitive legal costs - but that does not mean OP is infringing.


If the OP creates an app that is not associated with the name or trademarked terms of LFW, uses none of its artwork or other protected IP, sure. He may essentially create a generic, unrelated random number generator. And it would still be a poor move that is deliberately undercutting the ability of the publisher to make money on his investment. I have the legal right to go mock the deceased at people's funerals...doesn't mean it's the ethical move to make.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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dond80 wrote:
chuckhazard wrote:

First, IANAL, but I think this is incorrect. The makers of LFW have no exclusive rights on an app that takes an input (easy, medium, hard) and spits out a set of numbers. The OP cannot use copyrighted artwork from the game, or lift text verbatim, but that's about it. Of course OP may still receive a C&D, and choose not to fight it due to prohibitive legal costs - but that does not mean OP is infringing.


If the OP creates an app that is not associated with the name or trademarked terms of LFW, uses none of its artwork or other protected IP, sure. He may essentially create a generic, unrelated random number generator. And it would still be a poor move that is deliberately undercutting the ability of the publisher to make money on his investment. I have the legal right to go mock the deceased at people's funerals...doesn't mean it's the ethical move to make.


I'm not sure how this is undercutting the publisher-- people who own android devices are not likely to buy an IOS product. The OP inferred this is an android app.
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Don D.
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McJarvis wrote:
dond80 wrote:
chuckhazard wrote:

First, IANAL, but I think this is incorrect. The makers of LFW have no exclusive rights on an app that takes an input (easy, medium, hard) and spits out a set of numbers. The OP cannot use copyrighted artwork from the game, or lift text verbatim, but that's about it. Of course OP may still receive a C&D, and choose not to fight it due to prohibitive legal costs - but that does not mean OP is infringing.


If the OP creates an app that is not associated with the name or trademarked terms of LFW, uses none of its artwork or other protected IP, sure. He may essentially create a generic, unrelated random number generator. And it would still be a poor move that is deliberately undercutting the ability of the publisher to make money on his investment. I have the legal right to go mock the deceased at people's funerals...doesn't mean it's the ethical move to make.


I'm not sure how this is undercutting the publisher-- people who own android devices are not likely to buy an IOS product. The OP inferred this is an android app.


1) There are a significant number of people with both IOS and Android devices.

2) He has no idea whether or not the publisher ever intends to, or is already in the process of, create an analog app for the Android platform.

To me, it is as simple a question of "do I want to be a respectful member of this board gaming community or don't I?" And if the answer to that question is the affirmative, the publisher ought to be contacted for permission first. He might be surprised by what the publisher says.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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I can't speak from a legal perspective as you can, but I would equally not have a problem with someone creating a webscript that did the same thing. I don't think respect or personal ethics has much to do with coding a random number generator and sharing it.
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Steve W
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dond80 wrote:
If the OP creates an app that is not associated with the name or trademarked terms of LFW, uses none of its artwork or other protected IP, sure. He may essentially create a generic, unrelated random number generator. And it would still be a poor move that is deliberately undercutting the ability of the publisher to make money on his investment. I have the legal right to go mock the deceased at people's funerals...doesn't mean it's the ethical move to make.


Well, I'm not going to comment on equating making a random number generator with mocking people at funerals. But I don't really understand the rationale that since there is a theoretical future app from the publisher that those without iOS devices should just go without until that time.

The one we are making is a pretty sparse random number generator, and there will be a market for those people who want a (presumably) prettier app with fancier features.
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Don D.
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If that was the extent of what he was doing, I wouldn't have a terrible problem with it either. But he is using the geek in a way that will directly tie it to LFW and generate interest for it at the same time. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, Mike!



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Don D.
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MrThud wrote:

Well, I'm not going to comment on equating making a random number generator with mocking people at funerals.


They are logically identical scenarios insofar as they relate to this discussion. The latter is used to demonstrate the problems with the axiom - because it is legal it is ok- being used to support the first scenario.

MrThud wrote:
But I don't really understand the rationale that since there is a theoretical future app from the publisher that those without iOS devices should just go without until that time.


Just ask for permission. A million legal and other quandaries can be preempted by simply asking for permission at the outset.
 
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Don D.
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And allow me to add... I don't mean to state that you have evil or malicious intentions here. I think it is at least equally possible that you are trying to do something good for the community and didn't stop to consider the publisher's side in it or that it may be a more nuanced situation than you thought.
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Chris fromCanada
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Note that the random number generator took all of 2 minutes to write. Maybe another half hour to write up new lists based on new criteria. It took way less time than quick reference sheets, player mats, or dozens of other game aids that have been provided for games all over the Geek.

You may as well tell people posting Jack starting home strategies on the Strategy forum that they're undercutting the publisher's profits, because they are revealing knowledge that is imparted by the for-pay app on iOS.
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Don D.
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Daks wrote:
Note that the random number generator took all of 2 minutes to write. Maybe another half hour to write up new lists based on new criteria. It took way less time than quick reference sheets, player mats, or dozens of other game aids that have been provided for games all over the Geek.



Yes, and publishers have sent cease and desist orders to have such stuff removed from the fora. There's a saying about everyone jumping off a bridge together...
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Chris fromCanada
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Link is here:

http://houseforjack.site88.net/

So far there's only a list for all sites and no red-adjacent.

I'm thinking a good criteria for "easy" sites would be central ones with a lot of connected circles, but let me know if there are alternative criteria that might be more meaningful.
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Don D.
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Daks wrote:
Link is here:

http://houseforjack.site88.net/

So far there's only a list for all sites and no red-adjacent.

I'm thinking a good criteria for "easy" sites would be central ones with a lot of connected circles, but let me know if there are alternative criteria that might be more meaningful.


Want me to share the list that was used to create the app with you? Hahah...jk of course. Have to have a sense of humor sometimes
 
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Daks wrote:
Link is here:

http://houseforjack.site88.net/

So far there's only a list for all sites and no red-adjacent.

I'm thinking a good criteria for "easy" sites would be central ones with a lot of connected circles, but let me know if there are alternative criteria that might be more meaningful.


Cool. I've been very interested in discussions about Jacks hideout, having only played 6 or 7 games I don't have a good feeling for what's easy or hard - tucked into deep alleys seems to be easy, unless I'm trying to psych the investigators out. A classic I know that you know that I know you think I think you know I know I think you think I know...

I can see how some things are clearly easier - the main drag seems like it would be difficult but I've never tried it. However, in some ways it is very dependent on the psychology of the group.
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Mark Nicosia
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I too would love to take part (or at least lurk) in a discussion of hideout difficulty, and see a list of easy/medium/hard... just out of curiosity. Personally, I don't think I'd ever use an app/script/chart/whatever.. I think Jack should be able to choose his hideout from all available locations. But, like was said... it would still be interesting to know which are considered easy or hard, exactly for that 'I know that you know that I know' aspect you mention, which is kind of a core mechanic in these kind of games.

[EDIT:]
Love your avatar, Chuck.
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Steve W
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I'm also too new to the game to give any real expert advice on what would constitute an easy or hard start. But I can say my rationale for picking locations, as newbie-ish as they may be. Of course as there is a lot of advantage in picking the unexpected, which makes classing the difficulty of starts a bit tricky.

I think you want a hideout that has a lot of different approach paths to get to it, to give you some options in throwing the investigators off. That tends to favour the central locations, as you can get to them in a lot of different ways.

I also think there is some advantage in picking a location close to one of the murder sites for a Night 4 dash if the investigators have a good idea of where your hideout is.

I also suspect you want a Hideout adjacent to more than 2 crossings to make it trickier to lock down.

But, as I said, I'm quite new to the game, so I'm curious on other people's thoughts.
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Nick Storm
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on "Randomness"...

I personally don't like it. Any move in a chess match could never be random and still be 'chess'.

Other than the strong theme, one of the best things about 'Letters' is the huge Absence of Randomness, i.e no dice or chart or table.

I can see the counter argument of 'if you're so good at playing Jack, lets see how good you are with a random hideout"....but meh. I don't like it, won't use it.
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Chuckhazard
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ppayes wrote:
on "Randomness"...

I personally don't like it. Any move in a chess match could never be random and still be 'chess'.

Other than the strong theme, one of the best things about 'Letters' is the huge Absence of Randomness, i.e no dice or chart or table.

I can see the counter argument of 'if you're so good at playing Jack, lets see how good you are with a random hideout"....but meh. I don't like it, won't use it.


Or is it a challenge for the investigators, as it will nullify any insight they may have into Jacks style of choosing a hideout?

Mostly I see this as an aid for inexperienced players, to allow them to set a difficulty level without a detailed knowledge of how the game will play out.
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Don D.
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ppayes wrote:
on "Randomness"...

I personally don't like it. Any move in a chess match could never be random and still be 'chess'.

Other than the strong theme, one of the best things about 'Letters' is the huge Absence of Randomness, i.e no dice or chart or table.

I can see the counter argument of 'if you're so good at playing Jack, lets see how good you are with a random hideout"....but meh. I don't like it, won't use it.


You're missing a few huge points here. 1) the randomness occurs before the game ever begins a la bobby fishcher chess. 2) this is a hidden information, deduction game and chess is not. By choosing a hideout strategically, jack will start to create a pattern through which clever investigators will be able to make predictions and the meta game will break into something very different. By choosing purely randomly, jack forgos this disadvantage. This game is focused on deduction; adding this induction to the mix doesn't serve it well at all.
 
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Nick Storm
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I have no idea what you just said there...translation anyone ?
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