Chuck Parrott
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This scenario happened in our first play of 1860 yesterday.
OR 1 of 3, the 8 and then the first 9 train gets bought. End of the round all the companies with directors now have trains.
As best as I can tell, both the Southern formation and British Rails nationalization happen at the same time, is this correct?

If so, I saw a post elsewhere that the effects of the Southern are largely negated as there are no further SR's in the game. But the question came up because of wording on pg 14 of the 2009 2nd edition rules that in the bullet points for the nationlization it says that:
'During each operating round, any private companies still open pay out, and then each company runs its train(s), pays dividends, and adjusts
its share price:'

So are companines still allowed to lay track and place stations or not?
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jim b
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It's confusing in the rulebook (because they're under the same heading), but Southern Rail and British Rail nationalization are separate events:

1) The Southern Railway is formed when the first 9-train is purchased: after the next SR, no more track or stations may be placed; also, at the end of each OR/SR, players now check whether railway nationalization occurs.

2) British Rail nationalization happens when all companies with a director have a permanent train: there are no more SR's after this point; 2 companies close after each subsequent OR; etc.

Usually, after the Southern Rail is formed, railroads might have a couple of OR's remaining to lay track/stations- just until the next SR.

However, if British Rail nationalization happens in the same set of OR's as formation of the Southern Railway, there will never be a "next stock-round". In this case, railroads may continue to lay track/stations until the game ends. (If I understand correctly, this is the situation for your game yesterday.)
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Chuck Parrott
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Yes, essentially the conditions for both 1) and 2) occured at the same time. The company that purchased the 9 was one of the last to operate, all others with directors had permanent trains. The first question that came up was if they in fact both trigger without the effects of the Southern even happening (which we concluded was the case)

The second question was more to the fact that there is a very specific outline of events once the British Rails forms and the quote I included was from that outline where it doesn't mention lay track or tokens as part of what happens. But we couldn't tell if this was due to the Southern conditions so that section of rules was just restating that effect or if the British Rails indeed had it's own sepearte effect of shutting down track laying and token placement.

An earlier post which kind of covers it had a response that said they had received communication from Mike Hutton that said you could lay track and place tokens, but it's not clear how the question was posed to him which might of affected his answer.

We ultimately did play that you could lay track and place tokens but the wording on pg 14 left doubt in our minds.
 
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Mike Hutton
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cparrott wrote:
Yes, essentially the conditions for both 1) and 2) occured at the same time.


I'm afraid not. The Southern formed before BR, when the 9 train was bought. Nationalisation happened at the end of the round. So they happen in sequence, not together.

But this is semantics. The rules in this circumstances are not perhaps as clear as I'd intended.

The restriction on building only occurs after the SR following the formation of the Southern. Although the nationalisation rules imply buliding doesn't occur, they don't explicitly forbid it and so it is allowed.

In all honesty this eventuality could have been decided either way. The end-game is supposed to put a stop to end-game building, but on the assumption that players have a chance - a stay of execution if you will - to extend their networks once or twice after the Southern forms. If nationalization happens in such a sudden manner the players have no such chance, and it seems draconian to so suddenly put a stop to building so abruptly. On that basis I went with what I believe is the clearest interpretation of the rules as written.

Sorry if this wasn't clear enough.

cparrott wrote:
We ultimately did play that you could lay track and place tokens but the wording on pg 14 left doubt in our minds.


I'm glad you managed to get it right. Did you enjoy the game?
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Chuck Parrott
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Thanks for the answers Mike, we enjoyed the game very much despite the drubbing I took. I really mistimed the train market here and got stuck a couple of times with bad train mixes and several witholdings leaving me cash poor throughout and unable to build my portfolio.

I dare say that this might be heading up the list of being my favorite 18xx title, I need to give it a few more plays. The track planning is really tight and one or two bad tile lays can alter the game drastically. I know we didn't play very well our first time out, it was new for all 3 of us. It'll take a few more plays to get the values down on the companies. We seriously underbid them first time out (another thing that put me behind the 8 ball in our game).
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