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Subject: Cash Money? rss

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Ken Dilloo
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It seems as though if my piece is removed, I have the choice of transferring it to a cube or Guerilla of my choice, or removing it, to the supply. If my piece is removed by Assault, Kidnap, [edit: Assasinate/Commandeeror] Bribe/Contraband, I assume the choice goes to the faction carrying out the operation/activity?

So, I could not simply return the cash to the supply, if affected by these specific operations/activities? Nor could I transfer the cash to a unit of my choice?

Much Thanks!
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tom moughan
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If you re-read 4.5.2 you'll see that the OWNER gets to choose where the piece goes, even when the guerilla is being removed. Must go to another cube or piece in that space if possible or else removed. So, you can't simply return it unless you elect to do so for a free limited op on your turn if you perform an Op or LimOp with no special activity via laundering. (2.3.6)

Never in 4.5.2 does it imply that another player can tell you what do with the cash marker.
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Jared
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lengthtoavoid wrote:
If you re-read 4.5.2 you'll see that the OWNER gets to choose where the piece goes, even when the guerilla is being removed. Must go to another cube or piece in that space if possible or else removed. So, you can't simply return it unless you elect to do so for a free limited op on your turn if you perform an Op or LimOp with no special activity via laundering. (2.3.6)

Never in 4.5.2 does it imply that another player can tell you what do with the cash marker.


Kidnap specifically allows the 26July player to take a cash marker, even if the faction holding the cash could have transferred it to another piece of that same faction (4.3.3 Kidnap):

CASH RANSOM: If the targeted Faction has Cash (4.5.2) in the space, transfer 1 Cash marker to a 26July Guerrilla there instead of rolling for Resources.
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tom moughan
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ah, yes...with that exception. whistle
 
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Jared
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I believe that the DR Assassinate action has a similar caveat:

COMMANDEER: Place any Cash removed (4.5.2) with a Directorio Guerrilla in the space.
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tom moughan
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Commandeer...something for the errata -- That should be noted under 4.5.3 like Cash Ransom.

I don't get that the player aids state 'take any cash removed' under every attack. Does that infer to break what is established in 4.5.3 further and offer the active player who is performing an attack to reallocate that cash to themselves upon removal (if it applies)?
 
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Ken Dilloo
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So, it seems as though these 4 actions/activities (Assault, Kidnap, Assasinate/Commandeer, Bribe/Contraband) are exceptions to the owner's choice, in transferring by removal?

Having re-read that section (I did read it, several times actually), I see that you can only return cash to the supply, when removed, if there are no options to transfer to. But, I can't think of a situation where units would be removed without another piece to transfer to. Hence, some more confusion.......
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Ken Dilloo
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lengthtoavoid wrote:
Commandeer...something for the errata -- That should be noted under 4.5.3 like Cash Ransom.

I don't get that the player aids state 'take any cash removed' under every attack. Does that infer to break what is established in 4.5.3 further and offer the active player who is performing an attack to reallocate that cash to themselves upon removal (if it applies)?


That was kinda my original question, regarding those 4 actions/activities.
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Volko Ruhnke
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There is no error in the rules or charts.

The owner can prevent the Cash from being removed -- such as by Attack, Assault, Assassinate, or Bribe -- by transferring it to another Guerrilla or cube in the space (4.5.2).

If the owner fails to transfer Cash held by a piece that is removed, the Cash is removed (4.5.2).

If Cash is Removed by Attack, Assault, Assassinate, or Bribe, the executing Faction then gets the REMOVED Cash (or in the case of Bribe, that Cash is then given to another piece of the Syndicate's choice in that space, typically, the Syndicate's). (See the individual rules sections for these Ops and Activities.)

Kidnap works differently: no piece is removed nor choice given to the owner of the Cash. 26July simply gets the Cash marker if there is one (4.3.3).

Volko
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tom moughan
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Ok, great Volko...that makes sense! Removed is only if the owning player cannot transfer the piece. Thank you!
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Ken Dilloo
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Thanks Volko. Very clear.
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Jared
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There's still one piece that's not quite clear to me, from the first bullet on 4.5.2:

Quote:
• If a piece holding Cash is removed, the owner must immediately transfer the Cash marker to another Guerrilla or cube if possible, otherwise remove it.


The paragraph above in the rules indicates that cash can voluntarily be transferred by the owner to another faction. In the bulletted point, is the owner restricted to transferring the cash to it's own faction at that point?

In the following scenario, An active Syndicate guerrilla carrying cash occupies a space along with an underground DR guerrilla and three troops. The troops assault, removing the syndicate's only guerrilla in that space and requiring cash to be transferred or removed. Can the Syndicate willingly hand off the cash to the DR player to keep it out of the hands of the government?

Would the same work in reverse if the last cop in a city was holding cash, and 26July pulled off a rally + infiltrate? Could the cop being replaced by infiltrate hand off the cash to any other faction in that space to keep it out of the hands of the 26July faction?
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Ken Dilloo
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I have to admit, I am still a bit fuzzy on this, too. I think because of the ops, this rule (4.5.2) is typically an exception.

According to my calculations, there is only one op/activity that removes pieces, that doesn't call for this special taking upon removal: that is Airstrike. Also, there are only 2 removal ops/activities that don't also require the executing faction to have Guerrillas or cubes present, and those are Airstrike and Bribe.

So, very rarely would the target faction not be able to transfer to some faction, especially the executing target.

I assume then that with Airstrike and Bribe you could transfer to your own piece, or an enemy faction. Otherwise, this would be the only way to simply discard a removed piece to the supply, and only if there are no other non-base pieces left.

In most cases, then, if removed, you would have to transfer to someone. Your own, a third party, or the executing faction, since at least the executing faction would have cubes there.

Hope that is right anyway
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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jardeon wrote:
There's still one piece that's not quite clear to me, from the first bullet on 4.5.2:

Quote:
• If a piece holding Cash is removed, the owner must immediately transfer the Cash marker to another Guerrilla or cube if possible, otherwise remove it.


The paragraph above in the rules indicates that cash can voluntarily be transferred by the owner to another faction. In the bulletted point, is the owner restricted to transferring the cash to it's own faction at that point?

In the following scenario, An active Syndicate guerrilla carrying cash occupies a space along with an underground DR guerrilla and three troops. The troops assault, removing the syndicate's only guerrilla in that space and requiring cash to be transferred or removed. Can the Syndicate willingly hand off the cash to the DR player to keep it out of the hands of the government?

Would the same work in reverse if the last cop in a city was holding cash, and 26July pulled off a rally + infiltrate? Could the cop being replaced by infiltrate hand off the cash to any other faction in that space to keep it out of the hands of the 26July faction?

Hi Jared. No (not restricted), yes (to DR), yes (same in reverse), and yes (cop could hand it off). The rule just says "another Guerrilla or cube" and is mute regarding Faction. - vfr
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Ken -- That is right! -- vfr
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Jared
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Volko wrote:
jardeon wrote:
There's still one piece that's not quite clear to me, from the first bullet on 4.5.2:

Quote:
• If a piece holding Cash is removed, the owner must immediately transfer the Cash marker to another Guerrilla or cube if possible, otherwise remove it.


The paragraph above in the rules indicates that cash can voluntarily be transferred by the owner to another faction. In the bulletted point, is the owner restricted to transferring the cash to it's own faction at that point?

In the following scenario, An active Syndicate guerrilla carrying cash occupies a space along with an underground DR guerrilla and three troops. The troops assault, removing the syndicate's only guerrilla in that space and requiring cash to be transferred or removed. Can the Syndicate willingly hand off the cash to the DR player to keep it out of the hands of the government?

Would the same work in reverse if the last cop in a city was holding cash, and 26July pulled off a rally + infiltrate? Could the cop being replaced by infiltrate hand off the cash to any other faction in that space to keep it out of the hands of the 26July faction?

Hi Jared. No (not restricted), yes (to DR), yes (same in reverse), and yes (cop could hand it off). The rule just says "another Guerrilla or cube" and is mute regarding Faction. - vfr


This seems like cash being "removed" then is a fairly rare occurrence -- I guess I'm not really understanding the difference between 26 July guerrillas attacking syndicate forces holding cash, and receiving that cash by it being transferred to them by the syndicate (due to a lack of options in where it can be transferred) and cash that's slated for removal (because it cannot be transferred to anyone else) which then become eligible to be claimed by the attacking faction.

Maybe I'm making this more difficult than it needs to be.
 
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Ryan Dodge
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How would 4.5.4 Bribe (CONTRABAND) ever happen? It says that "the syndicate may transfer any cash removed by Bribe to another guerrilla or cube in the space".

4.5.2 says that the owner of the piece being removed must transfer the cash to another guerrilla or cube if there is one present. The cash is only removed if there is no valid cube or guerrilla, thus CONTRABAND would do nothing.

Under what possible circumstance will CONTRABAND actually accomplish something?

Thanks,
RJD
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Ken Dilloo
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jardeon wrote:
Volko wrote:
jardeon wrote:
There's still one piece that's not quite clear to me, from the first bullet on 4.5.2:

Quote:
• If a piece holding Cash is removed, the owner must immediately transfer the Cash marker to another Guerrilla or cube if possible, otherwise remove it.


The paragraph above in the rules indicates that cash can voluntarily be transferred by the owner to another faction. In the bulletted point, is the owner restricted to transferring the cash to it's own faction at that point?

In the following scenario, An active Syndicate guerrilla carrying cash occupies a space along with an underground DR guerrilla and three troops. The troops assault, removing the syndicate's only guerrilla in that space and requiring cash to be transferred or removed. Can the Syndicate willingly hand off the cash to the DR player to keep it out of the hands of the government?

Would the same work in reverse if the last cop in a city was holding cash, and 26July pulled off a rally + infiltrate? Could the cop being replaced by infiltrate hand off the cash to any other faction in that space to keep it out of the hands of the 26July faction?

Hi Jared. No (not restricted), yes (to DR), yes (same in reverse), and yes (cop could hand it off). The rule just says "another Guerrilla or cube" and is mute regarding Faction. - vfr


This seems like cash being "removed" then is a fairly rare occurrence -- I guess I'm not really understanding the difference between 26 July guerrillas attacking syndicate forces holding cash, and receiving that cash by it being transferred to them by the syndicate (due to a lack of options in where it can be transferred) and cash that's slated for removal (because it cannot be transferred to anyone else) which then become eligible to be claimed by the attacking faction.

Maybe I'm making this more difficult than it needs to be.


There really isn't a difference. Practically, you would target where the only transfer option is your own guerrillas. I guess worse would be to make the winning faction, holding cash, able to chose a not-so-winning faction. Either way, not a good choice for cash holder, but better for the executing faction, if they are the only option.

Think of rule 4.5.2 as an exception, rather than typical, and it will make more sense, I think.
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Ken Dilloo
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rjdodge wrote:
How would 4.5.4 Bribe (CONTRABAND) ever happen? It says that "the syndicate may transfer any cash removed by Bribe to another guerrilla or cube in the space".

4.5.2 says that the owner of the piece being removed must transfer the cash to another guerrilla or cube if there is one present. The cash is only removed if there is no valid cube or guerrilla, thus CONTRABAND would do nothing.

Under what possible circumstance will CONTRABAND actually accomplish something?

Thanks,
RJD


If you bribed with other factions' cubes/guerrillas there. Ideally, yours and no one else.
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Volko Ruhnke
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The general idea is simply that a group of your own (or your friends') pieces will protect your Cash together. If you have 3 Guerrillas and 1 of them has Cash, I can't just pick off that 1 Guerrilla holding the Cash to take it, because you'll just transfer the marker to another friendly piece.

However, very often there are not that many friendly forces around. Check out the Syndicate Available Forces, and you'll see why Syndicate Guerrillas often are alone in a space. And yet the Syndicate must risk stacking Cash to make rapid progress toward victory. If an enemy Faction is in the space with the lone Syndicate Guerrilla holding Cash, it gets very interesting ...

By the way, drug Shipments in Andean Abyss work just the same, except that the Government cannot hold them. In the game underway below, look how vulnerable the Cartels' (green) Shipment in the City to the left is to the FARC (red):



Regards, Volko
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Jared
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bigloo33 wrote:
rjdodge wrote:
How would 4.5.4 Bribe (CONTRABAND) ever happen? It says that "the syndicate may transfer any cash removed by Bribe to another guerrilla or cube in the space".

4.5.2 says that the owner of the piece being removed must transfer the cash to another guerrilla or cube if there is one present. The cash is only removed if there is no valid cube or guerrilla, thus CONTRABAND would do nothing.

Under what possible circumstance will CONTRABAND actually accomplish something?

Thanks,
RJD


If you bribed with other factions' cubes/guerrillas there. Ideally, yours and no one else.


Except this doesn't mesh with what Volko said above in response to my question about transferring to other factions. Picture the following province: 2x 26July (one with cash), 1x DR, 2x Troops, 1x Syndicate. The syndicate performs a bribe operation there, paying 3 resources to eliminate the two 26July guerrillas, per Volko above, the 26July player can simply choose to give that cash to the DR or the Troops, rather than the syndicate claiming it. He could also choose to transfer it to the Syndicate guerrilla, but not because Contraband forces him to.

If you take that same hypothetical province, but this time it's just 2x 26July (one with cash) and 1x Syndicate, perform that same bribe operation, per 4.5.2 bullet 1, the 26July must transfer the cash to the Syndicate, not because of Bribe's Contraband special ability, but simply because the rules in 4.5.2 state that it must be transferred to another piece. There's not a case where you could perform a bribe where the cash would be removed per contraband, because the owner will always be able to transfer it to the bribing Syndicate guerrilla.

Edit to add: is it possible that the unwritten assumption here is that a cash owner will not/cannot/must not ever transfer cash per the terms of 4.5.2 to a faction which is attacking that owner? That would actually clear up everything here, and explain why each rule that removes guerrillas/cubes from the board has a corollary explaining when cash is transferred to the attacker.
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Nathan Lee
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So for the Syndicate bot, where it has the opportunity to bribe, and the rules say where 'it is possible to remove an enemy's pieces to transfer cash to the syndicate', is this only applicable when they can take cash from a vulnerable faction, or do they have the option of wearing the enemy down?

For example, if I, as the government pounce on a lone syndicate guy to take his cash markers in Havana where I have 2 troops and 4 police, when the bot rallies back into the city, would it bribe three times in a row over a few turns to eventually get its cash markers back, or would it give up on what is essentially a lost cause for now (as I can transfer the cash around for a while), and pursue other opportunities?
 
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Ken Dilloo
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jardeon wrote:
bigloo33 wrote:
rjdodge wrote:
How would 4.5.4 Bribe (CONTRABAND) ever happen? It says that "the syndicate may transfer any cash removed by Bribe to another guerrilla or cube in the space".

4.5.2 says that the owner of the piece being removed must transfer the cash to another guerrilla or cube if there is one present. The cash is only removed if there is no valid cube or guerrilla, thus CONTRABAND would do nothing.

Under what possible circumstance will CONTRABAND actually accomplish something?

Thanks,
RJD


If you bribed with other factions' cubes/guerrillas there. Ideally, yours and no one else.


Except this doesn't mesh with what Volko said above in response to my question about transferring to other factions. Picture the following province: 2x 26July (one with cash), 1x DR, 2x Troops, 1x Syndicate. The syndicate performs a bribe operation there, paying 3 resources to eliminate the two 26July guerrillas, per Volko above, the 26July player can simply choose to give that cash to the DR or the Troops, rather than the syndicate claiming it. He could also choose to transfer it to the Syndicate guerrilla, but not because Contraband forces him to.

If you take that same hypothetical province, but this time it's just 2x 26July (one with cash) and 1x Syndicate, perform that same bribe operation, per 4.5.2 bullet 1, the 26July must transfer the cash to the Syndicate, not because of Bribe's Contraband special ability, but simply because the rules in 4.5.2 state that it must be transferred to another piece. There's not a case where you could perform a bribe where the cash would be removed per contraband, because the owner will always be able to transfer it to the bribing Syndicate guerrilla.

Edit to add: is it possible that the unwritten assumption here is that a cash owner will not/cannot/must not ever transfer cash per the terms of 4.5.2 to a faction which is attacking that owner? That would actually clear up everything here, and explain why each rule that removes guerrillas/cubes from the board has a corollary explaining when cash is transferred to the attacker.


Not seeing what I said as different from Volko. If there are other factions' pieces there, they are a possible transfer target, for the cash. Ideally, you want to have lone cash with your cubes/guerrillas, so there is no choice but to transfer to you. As I said, look at 4.5.2 as an exception, rather than a rule, and it will make more sense.....did for me anyway.

Bribe and airstrike are the only 2 where it is possible to not have pieces where removal happens, so 4.5.2 could apply. Although, it still doesn't HAVE to apply, because someone (including yourself) could have pieces there.

Edit: Talking about the Remove part of 4.5.2. Your example sounds right to me.
 
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Jared
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Even saying to look at 4.5.2 as an exception isn't helping; an exception to what? My apologies if I'm not understanding you, but it feels like what you're saying is that the acting faction always takes the cash, unless they don't have a cube or guerrilla in the space (in the case of Bribe/Airstrike where the acting faction isn't present in the space).

But Volko is saying that 4.5.2 is always in effect, whenever a piece holding cash is removed from the board, the owner's faction determines where the cash goes next.

Which leads to Ryan's question above, and I'm with him. I can't see any scenario in which Contraband could be used. Either the cash gets transferred by the owning player (not the one performing the bribe) to any other faction in that same space once their piece is removed, or the piece being removed by bribe is the very last one in the space, in which case the cash is returned to the supply -- at that point, the cash is being "removed" per 4.5.2 and there's no legal target for a Contraband transfer per 4.5.4.

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Ken Dilloo
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No prob. Not saying that the executing faction always takes the cash; not at all. What I am saying is that you want that to be the case. Hence, you have a lone cash, with only your pieces. So, there is no choice but to transfer to you. If there were other factions' pieces, you might not get the cash, because they could be transfer to another factions pieces.

4.5.2 is always in effect, but there are only 2 ops/activities where it is possible to not have anyone to transfer to. Possible, but not always. Those are airstrike and bribe. If those do happen, and there are no other non-base pieces there, the remove part of 4.5.2 would happen, with the cash going to the supply and not being transferred.

Edit: Maybe if all the special cases, like contraband, weren't in there?
 
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