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Subject: Capturing whole city with Open Gates rss

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John Jester
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This happened in a game the other night and allowed the player to effectively swing the VP counts by 8 in his favor in a single move action.

Player A has God Speed (+1 Move red tile) and a 5-unit troop with Phoenix, giving that troop 3 movement and the open gates ability. He starts the troop in the west-most temple.

The central city is controlled by Player B. Player B has a troop in one of the city spaces, and a level 4 pyramid in each of the city spaces.

As the final action of the day phase (and of the game it turned out), Player A uses 2 movement points to move all but 1 unit of the Phoenix troop (leaving 1 unit in the western temple) to an empty space in Player B's city. He leaves a single unit in that space and moves the rest of the troop (using its 3rd and final movement point) to the other empty space in Player B's city. He leaves a single unit in that space as well, and teleports the rest of the troop (now a Phoenix and 2 units) to the northern temple, where he wins a fight against Player B.

The results of this single move action were:
Player A gains 5 VP
- 2 temporary VP because he took control of 2 level 4 pyramids
- 1 temporary VP because he took control of the northern temple
- 1 permanent VP because he controlled 2 temples
- 1 permanent VP because he won a fight as attacker
Player B loses 3 VP
- 2 temporary VP because she lost controls of 2 level 4 pyramids
- 1 temporary VP because she lost control of the northern temple

The score before that action had been A-7 and B-10, so B was going to win as soon as the phase ended. But this one move changed the score to A-12, B-7.

So my rules question is basically, is all that was described above kosher? It seems too powerful to be allowed, but we couldn't find anything wrong with it.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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I believe it is both legit and impressive!

There was a recent point-swing of this type in a 2-player game I played not long ago. At the end of the penultimate turn, we were tied 7-to-7. At the end of the final turn, the score was 11 to 6.

The winner picked up 4 VP in a single turn as follows:
- Took over the loser's temple for 1 temporary VP
- Received 1 VP for the successful combat in that process
- Received another 1 VP for successfully defending against the loser's attempt to retake the temple (power tile allowed VP for defense)
- Got a further permanent VP for controlling two temples at sunset.

But 5 VP in a single action is quite a feat!
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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Also: Player B is at serious fault for leaving two undefended level-4 pyramids. Kemet does tend to emphasize offense over defense, but that's just an open invitation there.
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Mark Kale
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I reiterate. This is Sparta!
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Very nice! the only clarification I would make is the permanent VP for controlling 2 temples actually wouldn't happen. The game ends at the end of the day phase. The two temple permanent VPs are awarded in the night phase. Edit: Wrong information. Permanent VPs for a temple are awarded at the end of the day phase.
 
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John Jester
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Oh, we did notice that little conflict about the game ending at the end of the day, but the temple permanent VP (and the sanctuary VP) being awarded at night.

So if you are playing to 10 VP, and someone is at 9 VP and controls two temples going into night phase, the game would continue for the entire extra day phase even though the person ticked up to 10 VP already?
 
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Mark Kale
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I reiterate. This is Sparta!
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Yes. (edit: Actually the answer is No.)
 
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Eric Franklin
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KuulGryphun wrote:
So if you are playing to 10 VP, and someone is at 9 VP and controls two temples going into night phase, the game would continue for the entire extra day phase even though the person ticked up to 10 VP already?


Yes, because someone else might get 10 (or more) points by the end of the Day.
 
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Andy Day

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The OP's scenario has actually happened more than once in my circle, more or less.

It is basically impossible to defend more than 1 space in your city during the final game round. I think the answer is: DON'T build more than 1 level 4 pyramid.
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Dan Keller
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Boanerges wrote:
Very nice! the only clarification I would make is the permanent VP for controlling 2 temples actually wouldn't happen. The game ends at the end of the day phase. The two temple permanent VPs are awarded in the night phase.


??? VPs for controlling areas are awarded at the end of the Day Phase after all players' actions have been completed, including Permanent ones for controlling two temples and the Sanctuary. No VPs are given during the Night Phase.
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Mark Kale
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I reiterate. This is Sparta!
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chopperdan wrote:
Boanerges wrote:
Very nice! the only clarification I would make is the permanent VP for controlling 2 temples actually wouldn't happen. The game ends at the end of the day phase. The two temple permanent VPs are awarded in the night phase.


??? VPs for controlling areas are awarded at the end of the Day Phase after all players' actions have been completed, including Permanent ones for controlling two temples and the Sanctuary. No VPs are given during the Night Phase.


You are correct sir. My pardons.
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Andy Day

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Boanerges wrote:
chopperdan wrote:
Boanerges wrote:
Very nice! the only clarification I would make is the permanent VP for controlling 2 temples actually wouldn't happen. The game ends at the end of the day phase. The two temple permanent VPs are awarded in the night phase.


??? VPs for controlling areas are awarded at the end of the Day Phase after all players' actions have been completed, including Permanent ones for controlling two temples and the Sanctuary. No VPs are given during the Night Phase.


You are correct sir. My pardons.

Wow I was playing this wrong too. Very interesting.
 
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Eric Franklin
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chopperdan wrote:
Boanerges wrote:
Very nice! the only clarification I would make is the permanent VP for controlling 2 temples actually wouldn't happen. The game ends at the end of the day phase. The two temple permanent VPs are awarded in the night phase.


??? VPs for controlling areas are awarded at the end of the Day Phase after all players' actions have been completed, including Permanent ones for controlling two temples and the Sanctuary. No VPs are given during the Night Phase.


... that'll teach me to answer questions when the rulebook is in my car. :-)
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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chopperdan wrote:
??? VPs for controlling areas are awarded at the end of the Day Phase after all players' actions have been completed, including Permanent ones for controlling two temples and the Sanctuary. No VPs are given during the Night Phase.

There is at least one way to pick up a VP during the Night Phase. If you have the Hand of God power tile (White level 3), you can get a pyramid to level 4 during the night, and receive the corresponding temporary VP. But you're right about the dual-temple and Sanctuary VP, of course.
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Felix Lastname
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A move such as this is actually a very typical event for our games, which usually end precisely this way; and our inability to prevent or stop such hugely swingy moves has soured us a leeeeetle on this marvellous game.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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So far, I've only played games to 8 VP. But given this discussion of high-scoring late-game plays, I'm thinking that the "longer" 10-VP game won't usually take much more time, and might be a more satisfying benchmark.

What about 11? I like that the prayer points track "goes to 11," how about VP?
 
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Alexei S.
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Againsto wrote:
A move such as this is actually a very typical event for our games, which usually end precisely this way; and our inability to prevent or stop such hugely swingy moves has soured us a leeeeetle on this marvellous game.


It *is* possible to keep track of such threats.

- Only a player with Open Gates, Phoenix or a very lucky DI card (1 of 35) can enter your city by surprise. (Edit: They could also spend an Act of God or Divine Will action to move twice in one turn)
- Only a troop with sufficient movement can do so. Even more movement is required to take multiple pyramids. If they need to teleport first, you can keep track of whether they have the PP (they might have Prayer or Mana Theft, but that's another card in their hand that isn't Open Gates).
- Only a player who knows you won't have the chance to kick them out can risk such a thing. That means you're safe while you have a free recruitment action and enough units in your reserve, or a free movement action and a troop that can cover the distance.
- They will also not risk doing this if they think a subsequent attack by a different player can deprive them of enough VP to take them below the victory margin (such as by taking a temple from them for up to 2VP).

Any other ideas?
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Andy Day

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Againsto wrote:
A move such as this is actually a very typical event for our games, which usually end precisely this way; and our inability to prevent or stop such hugely swingy moves has soured us a leeeeetle on this marvellous game.

Ditto. I started the thread "go last = win" die to moves like this
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Silver Bowen
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Going last is very powerful, but not a guarantee of winning. Especially if the other player(s) are aware of the last player's capabilities.

In the original example, a troop of one on guard duty outside the city walls would have blocked the seizure of his temples (by inducing a fight). B still would have lost, but not as badly Multiple unguarded level 4 pyramids are sketchy ground to try and build a win on. Ditto for occupying temples that you can't adequately defend.
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Felix Lastname
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silverbowen wrote:
Going last is very powerful, but not a guarantee of winning. Especially if the other player(s) are aware of the last player's capabilities.


No, it is not, but it seems extremely difficult to win while not being last in turn order. At our table, of course.
 
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Silver Bowen
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Againsto wrote:
silverbowen wrote:
Going last is very powerful, but not a guarantee of winning. Especially if the other player(s) are aware of the last player's capabilities.


No, it is not, but it seems extremely difficult to win while not being last in turn order. At our table, of course.


Have you tried table talk/alliances against the last player? My experience has been that when the last player makes a bid to win a small roadblock will not only prevent it, but cost them the game next turn (when maybe the new last player wins, lol).
 
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