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Subject: Why can't these starships move zero? rss

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Terence Lee
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so a few things have kept me from buying into this game, but I am getting closer and closer to trying it out. One thing that bothers me though, is why can't a starship stay in place and move zero? Seems like if some of them can move backward, they should be able to move zero.
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Strictly in the name of gameplay.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/12998941#12998941

Take a look at the Organized Play DS9 scenario: if you could go to 'ALL STOP', the game would lose a lot of its challenge.

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Terence Lee
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That's what I thought...but still doesn't seem to be a good answer. That's like saying "its just because..." and not really giving an answer. I've played Star Fleet Battles, Federation Commander, Call to Arms: Star Fleet, and they all have a 0 movement and it never made it a problem. Just seems strange, just like how one poster said one of the ships has reverse 2, but not reverse 1. Just odd.
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D Conklin
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Having a few games under my belt now, I can see the wisdom of this.

Intrinsic to the Flight Path system is the need to make predictions about your opponents movement while successfully steering your own ship without precise measurement... it is a core mechanic that provides a compelling, visceral challenge that propels the action forward.

The ability to full stop would sacrifice this game flow for "realism"... not to mention provide other nastiness like "turtleing" and "guarding".

If it really bothers you that much, add full stop in as house rule, but I would recommend an appropriate penalty (ie, make it a red maneuver) to discourage its over-use. X-wing's Lambda-class shuttle should provide inspiration as it has a "0" maneuver.
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Matt
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maybe reduce ship agility to zero as well?
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Dusty S
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I think you pose a good question. Whatever the answer is, you really owe it to yourself to try out the game. It may not perfectly simulate Star Trek battles, but it's tons of fun to play. And if it COULD perfectly simulate those battles it would take FOREVER to play.
Some sacrifices must be made when trying to combine a theme with an optimally enjoyable experience. I think Attack Wing does an excellent job of it.
 
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I'd suggest the mover losing a die from attack and defense for the remainder of the turn if the ship performs a Move 0.

I like the alternate proposal of losing all Agility for the remainder of the turn, too, though I disagree about receiving a stress token for it.

But I can imagine there might be scenarios in the future that would require a ship to declare something like an 'All Stop' to perform a certain task. In those situations, being forced into a Move 0 by scenario objectives might be penalty enough.

Not that it helps the OP, but playing Attack Wing (and X-Wing) has ended any desire in me to play SFB or the like.
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MattHawke wrote:
maybe reduce ship agility to zero as well?


I was thinking exactly this, simple and to the point, well said.


At the very least it should be a red maneuver as D Conklin mentioned.
 
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Terence Lee
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MattHawke wrote:
maybe reduce ship agility to zero as well?


Actually, that would make a lot of sense. This actually seems like a better solution and I would think wouldn't ruin the game.
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Keith Anderson
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tlee33 wrote:
MattHawke wrote:
maybe reduce ship agility to zero as well?


Actually, that would make a lot of sense. This actually seems like a better solution and I would think wouldn't ruin the game.


I don't know that this would be enough penalty to prevent some turtling - star castling tactics from taking hold. Giving up a defensive die or two might be worth stacking ships. How about having all dice rolled against a stationary target automatically hit? After all it is stationary and these are high tech weapons. This would keep ships moving as intended while giving a zero move as a thematic option which might even be worthwhile if you can do it without an enemy firing upon you.

Of course, there would also have to be a way of designating a zero move without giving it away and without discarding the current movement dials.

And then someone would want to be able to rotate in place...

I'll simply leave great fun as is.

edit: also SFB and Fed Commander had pursuit weapons like drones and plasmas to further encourage movement. So far this game has not went down that path...I hope it won't since they would slow game play.
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I agree that adding Move 0 starts to complicate things.

I also agree that the OP should try the game rules-as-written a few times before deciding the game needs tinkering with in that way.
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Terence Lee
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I'm not saying that adding "0" would make this a better game. I just thought it strange that something like that was left out just to "make it play right" rather than put more thought into making it work.

Its almost like making a fantasy game and saying that you can't use a sword to fight with, because we didn't figure out a way to make it work in the game, but it's still fun to play.
 
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I'm glad you can't go 0. It would be just like Wizard's awful Star Wars ship combat game, where you moved up, and sat there shooting at each other. Very boring.
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Keith Anderson
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tlee33 wrote:
I'm not saying that adding "0" would make this a better game. I just thought it strange that something like that was left out just to "make it play right" rather than put more thought into making it work.

Its almost like making a fantasy game and saying that you can't use a sword to fight with, because we didn't figure out a way to make it work in the game, but it's still fun to play.


Or its like not having a rule for holding a sword straight in front of you and running around, sword fixed in place, hoping to run its tip into the opponent. In other words, swords are for swinging and ships are for moving

Actually, I get what you are saying but I guess I can easily dismiss this as an issue since a game with the two sides, sitting still, taking turns throwing dice would be boring. Thematically I just think of it as sitting still is suicidal and ships, well, move. But I do get that it is not real.
 
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Terence Lee
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I think it just bugs me because most naval or large ship war games that I've played usually made more sense. I suppose I can understand the reason why WizKids did it to make the game flow and move at a faster pace. I guess I should just get over it.
 
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Obsolete Man
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tlee33 wrote:
I think it just bugs me because most naval or large ship war games that I've played usually made more sense. I suppose I can understand the reason why WizKids did it to make the game flow and move at a faster pace. I guess I should just get over it.


Basically, you can go forward or even in reverse and maintain the integrity of the warp bubble around your ship. If you want to come to a complete stop you'd have to decelerate by going speed 1 for several turns, and then come to a full stop. Otherwise the sudden influx of Einsteinian Relativity would destabilize the Blatheron field in your warp core, etc.

Or you could say that you can declare an "All Stop". However, if you do you declare it at the start of the planning phase, so everybody knows that's what you're doing. If someone fires at you while you're at All Stop, you get no defense dice and all attack dice automatically roll critical hits (since the computer can't miss and hits you right in the bridge, engine, etc.). Which means that you *could* do it, but you probably wouldn't since it would be suicide.
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Will Sanchez
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just play it with the "move 0" option if you want. After 2 games you'll see why it sucks. This isn't warhammer.
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Just impose a house rule with friends to do the 0 Move = No Agility, even from range. Or grant the attacker bonus dice for a sitting duck target.

I don't see the 0 move as game breaking, as you can still maneuver into the dead zones and peck away - much like what was done with DS9 at many events.
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Keith Anderson
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tlee33 wrote:
I think it just bugs me because most naval or large ship war games that I've played usually made more sense. I suppose I can understand the reason why WizKids did it to make the game flow and move at a faster pace. I guess I should just get over it.


It is actually strange that this doesn't bother me. It seems as I age I pay less attention to this sort of thing. So I'm not saying it shouldn't bother you, just that for some reason I've been able to dismiss it.
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Jeff Whaley
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I don't think having a zero move option negates the game play or reduces the fun or effectiveness of the system.

Perhaps another way to view it, each faction has an objective during the event and has a finite amount of time to do it. Like the in OP 1 event, there was a "time limit" due to the window of opportunity closing to take DS9 and disable the minefield with the pending arrival of Federation reinforcements behind the anti-Dominion coalition.

House rule it for your own play if need be but I don't understand why that is the objection to buying this game and playing it. If you don't think it's playable because of that, well ok.
But I have to agree with the folks here who are saying it is playable without the zero move option.

If staying put is a need for your game play style, you could fly those ships that have the option to just move forward and flip, move forward, move forward and flip all game long. Mini patrol route assignment maybe?

At the very least, go to your FLGS when they're running the OP or if they just have a night that the game is played and watch it. Decide if it was fun or not based on that.
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Terence Lee
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GamePlayer wrote:
tlee33 wrote:
I think it just bugs me because most naval or large ship war games that I've played usually made more sense. I suppose I can understand the reason why WizKids did it to make the game flow and move at a faster pace. I guess I should just get over it.


It is actually strange that this doesn't bother me. It seems as I age I pay less attention to this sort of thing. So I'm not saying it shouldn't bother you, just that for some reason I've been able to dismiss it.


I must be too attached to my childhood and miss my old games
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tlee33 wrote:
I think it just bugs me because most naval or large ship war games that I've played usually made more sense. I suppose I can understand the reason why WizKids did it to make the game flow and move at a faster pace. I guess I should just get over it.


tlee33, I really encourage you to try the game. If you like it enough to buy, it'll be yours to tinker with any way you and your friends like. When you hit upon something your table likes, share it with us!

I love games that recreate an experience rather than worry overmuch about what's "real" or not. Attack Wing and X-Wing both excel at bringing the fun of the movies and shows in a fast and challenging way that doesn't require a lot of time, prep, and rules overhead from the players.

I don't want to oversell the game, though. If you really dig SFB-type games and lots of complexity and detail, Attack Wing may not be your cup of tea.
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Steven N.

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"Captain, we can't full-stop in combat! The flux capacitor in the warp nacelles would overflow with theta radiation from our phaser banks." That kind of thing.
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Chris Krumlauf
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I'd make it a house rule.

All stops have to be declared at the beginning of the turn (out of pilot sequence) and the player loses all agility dies. Resuming movement from an all stop adds an auxiliary power token.

I'm not too worried about Star Castling in this game. Ships are only able to fire one weapon per turn (and only get one action) unlike the games where this is an issue. Also, fire arcs in Attack Wing are more restricted than those in Star Fleet Battles, etc.
 
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Why would a ship, in the perfect firing position ever move if it didn't have to? Why would two ships in perfect firing positions ever move?

The "No Zero" move had to be included, or you minu's well have two outposts shoot it out at range 1.

Ships only move for two reasons: to bring their firing arc to bear on another ship, or to avoid getting hit. So if you going to do a variant that breaks such an important rule/strategy, you need to have a penalty that's just as important.

In my opinion, a ship dead in space should get an auto-damage with each die if attacked. . .
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