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Subject: The B-Wing is really infuriating me, right now... rss

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Xander Fulton
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Just because it's so much fun to play around with, build lists around...it's a great platform for the Rebels in a somewhat-sturdy fire platform, but still not totally helpless in a dogfight.

The closest analogy in the "Imperial" side is Slave-I, which I just don't enjoy flying as it hardly feels very 'forces of law and order', and in any case it's just that bit higher cost in base value to present fewer really interesting options in fleet building. Compared to using the B-Wing, it's just...it lacks everything. Not as interesting fleet options, having to fly with bounty hunters in the first place (seriously - Bounty Hunters! We don't need their scum, here!)

That damn B-Wing is just making me SO disappointed in the lack of the Imperial XG-1 Star Wing (IE., the 'assault gunboat')...



...gah! That was the perfect adversary for the B-Wing in the old 'X-Wing' games! I WANT THAT SHIP, FFG, YOU HEAR ME?! angry Grrrrrr.

It's torture to have such a great set of Rebel fighters (that B-Wing...gaaaaaah!) and have the assault gunboat left on the table from the Empire's side...
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Michael Ptak
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Agreed. We get the mainstays of the Imperial forces, but these TIE swarms are decried as broken but are the only effective pure imperial navy build. You can't swarm with interceptors, Bombers rely totally on their ordinance, and Advanceds are too expensive to deploy effectively.

The Empire needs some effective fighters. We need TIE Defenders, TIE Avengers, and Assault Gunboats. Empire shouldn't be restricted to just quantity builds in order to be reliably competitive.
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actually, what the empire needs is simply named pilots that give supportive effects, such as Howlrunner and Yorr. Jenson is very ineffective, and nowhere near what the rebels have, like all 3 HWK pilots, Garven, Dutch and Biggs
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Dallas Tucker
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There are some Tie Defender models on Shapeways (one example). I haven't ordered them, but I saw them while I was browsing the other day.
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Michael Ptak
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I would order some if they weren't the spindly depictions that are almost everywhere. Something similar to the original game model which actually had heft to justify the increased stats over the LN.

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Norsehound wrote:
I would order some if they weren't the spindly depictions that are almost everywhere. Something similar to the original game model which actually had heft to justify the increased stats over the LN.



Yeah, that picture looks fantastic! Get me one of those! shake

Just ribbing you Norsehound.
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Xander Fulton
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Norsehound wrote:
The Empire needs some effective fighters. We need TIE Defenders, TIE Avengers, and Assault Gunboats. Empire shouldn't be restricted to just quantity builds in order to be reliably competitive.


Indeed! Although I have a hunch the TIE Defender would be a bit powerful, such that it would be somewhat challenging to build an interesting list around two of them.

That's really what makes the B-Wing so much fun - you can kit out a couple with some effective hardware (Blue + FCS + HLC), and still have more than 1/3 of your points left to play around with everything else available.

I think the assault gunboat will fit a similar roll - indeed, I'd expect its cost and options to be fairly similar to the B-Wing. Generally, using the B as a starting point, the gunboat should look something vaguely like:
-2 shields
+1 agility
-barrel roll
-1 attack
+fireward/aft primary fire arc (like on the Firespray, due to that pivot thing)
-2 torpedo
+2 concussion missile

...should maneuver a bit like an X-Wing/Y-Wing mix (IIRC from the game).
 
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Nicholas Bazzano
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"Forces of law and order"? It's the Evil Empire people. They blow up planets filled with people as an interrogation technique. They aren't trying to bring law and order to anyone, they're just trying to keep Emperor Palpatine in power.
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Xander Fulton
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coastcityo wrote:
"Forces of law and order"? It's the Evil Empire people. They blow up planets filled with people as an interrogation technique. They aren't trying to bring law and order to anyone, they're just trying to keep Emperor Palpatine in power.


Nononono - that's just Tarkin you are thinking of.

HE, obviously, is a war criminal, yes. But, then, what's to be expected? He started his military career under the Old Republic - an institution known to be moribund with corruption and decay!

Compare how the Empire operated on Tatooine when looking for known Rebel operatives and stolen plans...a local bartender actually reached out to them for help with a local disturbance, and they were happy to help! They encounter a locked door when doing house-to-house searches, and...do they kick it down? Nope, they just knock on it and then move on when nobody answers!

Forces of law and order, here, folks.
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Michael Ptak
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I was being completely serious. Obviously not as gouraud shading but at least with the structure. Top picture in this image is closer to what I would be hoping for.

I'm aware the three-pipe Defender is the more prevalent depiction but others have pointed out that it doesn't help make the TIE/D stats believable. With the extra heft you can think the Empire squeezed generators in there to make it work.

Xander, it depends on where FFG would put a hypothetical price point, and if 2 would be good against some of the awesome Rebel build squadrons out there. One of my benchmarks are four X-Wings with some points to play with as the "typical" Rebel squadron. At two, the TIE Defenders may be over-matched unless they have good stats and good dials.

The Gunboat struck me as a low-manuver hefty assault fighter, weak on the guns but with a plethora of them. So something like 2Att, 2 Agil, 4 hull, 3 shield, Missile, Systems, cannon. Dial would probably be disappointing with a lot of the long maneuvers going red, and some of soft banks are green.

From what I recall the Gunboat's biggest annoyances in X-Wing were that it was shielded, and when it appeared it was ready to throw concussion missiles at the player. It also carried IOn cannons for capture missions, and the Sys upgrade could be there to allow equipping an eventual beam weapon. I don't see where you're getting the rear-fire arc, the Gunboat never had one in any of the depictions I've seen.

I think I'd expect them to be better TIE Advanced x1s. They don't have the great maneuver or plethroa of actions, but they're cheap Autoblaster platforms and have enough resiliency to take a few hits.


Whether or not we see the gunboat depends on how distinct it can be apart from the TIE Defender, which shares many of the upgrades but with superior stats (I'd imagine). We'd also have to compare it to the Skipray blastboat, which is another assault fighter.

I'm iffy myself on if we'd see the TIE Avenger or the Missile Boat. I hope so, as these craft were also production designs with respectable performance.
 
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Xander Fulton
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Norsehound wrote:
Xander, it depends on where FFG would put a hypothetical price point, and if 2 would be good against some of the awesome Rebel build squadrons out there. One of my benchmarks are four X-Wings with some points to play with as the "typical" Rebel squadron. At two, the TIE Defenders may be over-matched unless they have good stats and good dials.


What struck me the most likely for a TIE Defender would be 33 pts for PS3, 3 agil, 3 attack, 3 shield, 3 hull. Upgrades are canon, system upgrade (should have tractor beam card in expansion for this slot?), missile, and modification. Actions are focus, target lock, evade, barrel roll, boost.

Norsehound wrote:
The Gunboat struck me as a low-manuver hefty assault fighter, weak on the guns but with a plethora of them. So something like 2Att, 2 Agil, 4 hull, 3 shield, Missile, Systems, cannon. Dial would probably be disappointing with a lot of the long maneuvers going red, and some of soft banks are green.


That's basically what I was thinking - although less hull than you suggested, but sure, that works, too. As to the dial - I'd say it won't be as good as the X-Wing, sure, but it won't be as bad as the B-Wing...

Norsehound wrote:
I don't see where you're getting the rear-fire arc, the Gunboat never had one in any of the depictions I've seen.


The fluff material with the X-Wing games mentioned the turret. Click through on that link I posted, above - the top guns are mounted on a pivot. In the PC game, the higher-poly model used for the 'launch' animations also showed a turret, there - although more of a 'ball mount'.

It shows up in a number of other renders of it, too. The earliest in-game views of it lacked that, of course, because the poly count was too high to show it.

Norsehound wrote:
I think I'd expect them to be better TIE Advanced x1s. They don't have the great maneuver or plethroa of actions, but they're cheap Autoblaster platforms and have enough resiliency to take a few hits.


I think the only actions it'd be missing from the TIE Advanced would be a 'barrel roll' or 'evade'...and the maneuver wheel will CERTAINLY be worse...so I'm not sure I'd say it's flat-out "better".

On the other hand, I'd sure love to fly one!

Norsehound wrote:
Whether or not we see the gunboat depends on how distinct it can be apart from the TIE Defender, which shares many of the upgrades but with superior stats (I'd imagine). We'd also have to compare it to the Skipray blastboat, which is another assault fighter.


There are a few obvious points of distinction...

Assault Gunboat vs TIE Defender:
- TIE/D should have higher agility, obviously (3 vs 2)
- TIE/D has twice as many canons, so higher attack (3 vs 2)
- No TIE in the game (even the ungainly bomber) lacks a barrel roll, while the assault gunboat obviously will not have that
- TIE/D should, in some way, be a bit less tough than the gunboat. One less hull sounds fine.
- TIE/D should also probably have 'boost' out-of-the-dock, while the gunboat would need to buy the engine upgrade to get it
- Plainly, the TIE/D will have a better maneuver wheel

As far as upgrades go, yes, I'd expect them to be pretty similar, there.

Assault Gunboat vs Skipray Blastboat:
- Skipray is HUGE...treated in some context as a 'capital ship'...I'd half expect this to be on a 'large' base, anyway! Obviously, the gunboat wouldn't be on so large a base. (The GAT-12 Skipray is 5 meters longer than the Lambda-class shuttle. EDIT: Although I suppose it's true this does put it in the same approximate size as the HWK-290, which did come on a 'small' base. Hard to say - the Skipray has a lot more 'bulkiness' than the HWK-290, and it is noted as having capital-ship-type-defenses in a few places, so I'd rather think the large base and harder-to-ionize-rules make the most sense for it, but...)
- Per above, I'd expect the Skipray to have tons of hull+shields
- Skipray has a multi-person crew (up to 5), so should have 'crew' upgrade slots
- Skipray also has a 360-degree weapon turret on top (would be a first for the Empire, while the Rebels already have two)
- Skipray carries torpedoes or missiles, gunboat only carries missiles

IMHO, the bigger concern with the Skipray is 'how to make it meaningfully distinct from the Slave-I in stats'.
 
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Michael Ptak
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Re: Gunboat turret
The cinematic model doesn't suggest the guns could go backward... and while Fractalsponge's model is great I'm not sure if I'd expect the ion guns to swivel completely backward... just track ahead of the vessel.

When thinking about the gunboat's performance I consider gameplay from TIE Fighter first, before making presumptions based on the model itself. All the guns from the gunboat were fixed forward and I'd expect it to need wingmates to cover each other to prevent enemy fighters from getting behind them, just like it did in the game.

I'd hope the Gunboat is as distinct as you say in the eyes of FFG, because I'd really like to have them. For scenario purposes I'd want to have them as on-call reinforcements or special attack ships just as they were in the TIE Fighter missions. I'm not sure if we should hope for them in Wave 4, but the sky's the limit!
 
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Xander Fulton
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Norsehound wrote:
When thinking about the gunboat's performance I consider gameplay from TIE Fighter first, before making presumptions based on the model itself. All the guns from the gunboat were fixed forward and I'd expect it to need wingmates to cover each other to prevent enemy fighters from getting behind them, just like it did in the game.


Sure, but that was true of the Y-Wing, too. It also had strictly-fixed-forward guns in the game, and we know that has an actual turret.

The game is certainly a great place to start, but there were definite limitations to what they could model at the time. And that the game designers rendered it with a turret (although obviously a very limited-traverse one) on top for the higher-poly 'launch' animation...

Norsehound wrote:
I'd hope the Gunboat is as distinct as you say in the eyes of FFG, because I'd really like to have them. For scenario purposes I'd want to have them as on-call reinforcements or special attack ships just as they were in the TIE Fighter missions. I'm not sure if we should hope for them in Wave 4, but the sky's the limit!


Who knows - FFG seems to be dipping their toes fairly lightly into EU. Since Wave 4 seems like it's going to be that pair of new/repaint Interceptors, presumably a pair of similarly "new/repaint Rebels", that would still leave two slots for them to experiment with more EU craft while still not going pure-EU for the next wave.

I would LOVE to get that gunboat under my Christmas tree with those royal Interceptors...
 
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XanderF wrote:
coastcityo wrote:
"Forces of law and order"? It's the Evil Empire people. They blow up planets filled with people as an interrogation technique. They aren't trying to bring law and order to anyone, they're just trying to keep Emperor Palpatine in power.


Nononono - that's just Tarkin you are thinking of.

HE, obviously, is a war criminal, yes. But, then, what's to be expected? He started his military career under the Old Republic - an institution known to be moribund with corruption and decay!

Compare how the Empire operated on Tatooine when looking for known Rebel operatives and stolen plans...a local bartender actually reached out to them for help with a local disturbance, and they were happy to help! They encounter a locked door when doing house-to-house searches, and...do they kick it down? Nope, they just knock on it and then move on when nobody answers!

Forces of law and order, here, folks.


Some blog I was reading suggested that Tarkin was about to make his own play for the Throne, which was why he was a little fast-and-loose with the rules. I can't muster all the arguments, but if you look at the Death Star meeting room scene as a gathering of mutineers about to launch a coup - it works...
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Personally I think Imperial pilots have a degree of swivel control with their guns, shooting in one direction but flying in another, which explains the fire cone nicely (and some shooting in the movies). I wouldn't go as far to say the Gunboat could fire backwards though, because even outside the flight simulator I haven't seen an account of doing as such.

Of course, the gunboat hardly appears outside of the games, which is part of the reason I want to see it so much. This is an awesome fighter and more deserving of the Hyperspace raider role in the Imperial navy than the unattractive Blastboat, which appeared more in smuggler hands than navy use.

For the Empire... I look at the TIE Fighter missions to see justification in the Navy. They're doing their jobs, cracking down on piracy and enforcing galactic law as it was legally passed in Galactic Politics. The Rebellion is welcome to try changing that through arms of force, and ultimately they prevailed. And actually, half the fighters you attack in TIE Fighter are Imperial navy defectors!
 
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Vagabond Elf wrote:
Some blog I was reading suggested that Tarkin was about to make his own play for the Throne, which was why he was a little fast-and-loose with the rules. I can't muster all the arguments, but if you look at the Death Star meeting room scene as a gathering of mutineers about to launch a coup - it works...

Except for the presence of Darth Vader, the Emperor's strong right hand. Not that Vader is incapable of planning to assassinate and/or usurp his master's position, but helping someone else take the throne...? shake
 
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I would soooo love to get an Tie Defender or Assault Gunboat for this game. FFG... make it happen!
 
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
Vagabond Elf wrote:
Some blog I was reading suggested that Tarkin was about to make his own play for the Throne, which was why he was a little fast-and-loose with the rules. I can't muster all the arguments, but if you look at the Death Star meeting room scene as a gathering of mutineers about to launch a coup - it works...

Except for the presence of Darth Vader, the Emperor's strong right hand. Not that Vader is incapable of planning to assassinate and/or usurp his master's position, but helping someone else take the throne...? shake


Yeah, but Vader is smart enough to know that the Navy doesn't really respect him, and let Tarkin do the heavy lifting.

Also, it's totally clear in the first movie that Vader is not at that point the Emperor's "Strong Right Hand." He's totally Tarkin's minion. This is because the story evolved in a slightly different direction than had been originally planned, I know - but it still inspires one to imagine a major falling out, neh?

I found the original thing I'd been reading, though. It's from Jason Fry's commentary on the Star Wars Guide to Warfare. I'll give the link, because he says it better than I could:

http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/24881617404/eg-to-warfare-en...
 
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Xander Fulton
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rashktah wrote:
Tie Defender or Assault Gunboat




What's this "or" nonsense??
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XanderF wrote:
Forces of law and order, here, folks.


Absolutely.

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Vagabond Elf wrote:
Vorpal Sword wrote:
Vagabond Elf wrote:
Some blog I was reading suggested that Tarkin was about to make his own play for the Throne, which was why he was a little fast-and-loose with the rules. I can't muster all the arguments, but if you look at the Death Star meeting room scene as a gathering of mutineers about to launch a coup - it works...

Except for the presence of Darth Vader, the Emperor's strong right hand. Not that Vader is incapable of planning to assassinate and/or usurp his master's position, but helping someone else take the throne...? shake


Yeah, but Vader is smart enough to know that the Navy doesn't really respect him, and let Tarkin do the heavy lifting.

Also, it's totally clear in the first movie that Vader is not at that point the Emperor's "Strong Right Hand." He's totally Tarkin's minion.

The Death Star is, if not the largest military installation in the galaxy, certainly among the largest. Supposing, arguendo, that Tarkin is planning a coup and Vader is in on it--you're also supposing that either the entire crew of the DS is personally loyal to the Tarkin/Vader duo, or that they can at least keep the crew in the dark about what's really going on.

But that logic goes out the window when Alderaan is destroyed. There's no way to keep that hidden--too many engineers are involved with making sure the station's reactor isn't overloaded, too many people are making sure the weapon fires correctly, and too many people are involved in physically pulling the trigger. If the Emperor doesn't know or understand what they're doing at the film's opening, he certainly does after the superlaser is fired at an inhabited planet.

Vagabond Elf wrote:
I'll give the link, because he says it better than I could...

Thanks; I'll give it a look.

TheFlatline wrote:
Up to this point when a new wave was announced they announced the entire wave all at once with a NEW WAVE OF SHIPS post.

I'm normally pretty conservative about what they're going to release, but I don't think repaints and alternate ship versions of pre-existing ships is going to be wave 4. They would have said so already. I think these are in-between fillers.

The only things we know for sure are:
* The capital ship releases feature "a new X-wing miniature, and four new X-wing pilots", and
* they "will not supplant or disrupt our next wave of starship expansions".

So your hypothesis is totally plausible, given the only hard information we have from FFG.
 
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I'm hardly a Star Wars nerd but a nifty idea I've been thinking with the gunboat would be maybe sideways fire arcs, like the old WWII bombers. You could attack twice per round, once with left guns and once with right guns or some such.
 
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That makes less sense than shooting backwards.

Check out Wookiepedia for a casual glance at the spaceships we're talking about. The XG-1 Alpha-Class Assault gunboat certainly has weapons aimed in the front, and it's being suggested the fin-mounted Ions could swivel backward. The Gunboat is a fighter, not a gunship, so it doesn't have turrets and side-mounted guns.

The Skipray does though.
 
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EitherOrlok wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Forces of law and order, here, folks.


Absolutely.



That's absolutely effin' brilliant!
 
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Chad Moore
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coastcityo wrote:
"Forces of law and order"? It's the Evil Empire people. They blow up planets filled with people as an interrogation technique. They aren't trying to bring law and order to anyone, they're just trying to keep Emperor Palpatine in power.



No, It is not an evil Empire.. Recall Emperor Palpatine renaming the Galactic Republic, to the Galactic Empire, with those people obeying his orders. Yeah, they are totally just following his lead blindly. That doesn't make the entire Empire evil though.



So, what you have here is a case of a Republic being hijacked and used for evil means. Not unlike Ancient Rome thanks to Caesar.

 
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