Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: Vessels defense ratings rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
Like the game and played it several times, but the defense ratings for the ships seem a little low. IMHO, do other players think so. I play X wing as well and the Tie Interceptor has a 3 agility rating (LOVE THIS FIGHTER BTW). Just curious.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lester Gash
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mb
I agree to an extent - I think 1 is suitable for the largest ships (Galaxy, Negh'var etc.) but I'm surprised that 2 is the highest we've seen so far. I'd have thought the Defiant would have had 3 - it's a very nimble little ship.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
DB Draft
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Yes it is something I noticed straight away... Agility 1 is not much fun against an Agility 6 Romulan that can cloak every turn! I am also a new player that has played X wing. I still like my Y wings because they are able to take punishment but this game demands more finesse in how you move and what actions you take as in general you will have fewer ships.
I would like to see more small scale destroyers in the game with Agility 2 to make a pseudo swarm of expendable targets while the big ships duke it out at longer ranges.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
These are capital ships, not stunt fighters. So they have a lower agility, but can soak up more damage.

From a gameplay perspective, the low agility values are somewhat offset by the ubiquitous evasive maneuvers action, and the relatively common cloaking device.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric B.
United States
East Lansing
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Agility as a stat made very little sense at this scale of play, especially because with computer-targeting, it's not like attacks in Star Trek ever really miss, even though they are fighting at like 100,000km distances sometimes.

It's more a question of whether or not the attack was powerful enough to weaken the target's shields when it hits.

A general "Defense" stat would have made more sense at this scale, but I guess it would have resulted in larger ships being ridiculously powerful and smaller ones being ineffective in battles (you know, just like in the shows and movies...).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lezta wrote:
I agree to an extent - I think 1 is suitable for the largest ships (Galaxy, Negh'var etc.) but I'm surprised that 2 is the highest we've seen so far. I'd have thought the Defiant would have had 3 - it's a very nimble little ship.


Wait for the fighter squadrons... I bet they'll pack a small punch, maybe only 1 or 2 attack, but have 3 defense. I bet they'll also be able to carry one shot torpedoes or something...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lester Gash
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mb
Apparently the B'rel only has 1! I wonder what the thinking there was. I'm sure it will be manouverable but I think I'd have given it at least 2.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hero Guy
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the defense/agility ratings are fine. As someone else already mentioned, these are mostly huge capital ships that aren't really going to be dodging anything. I'm not as familiar with Star Wars, but I believe that ships tend to have nowhere near the hull + shields that the Star Trek ships have (outside of the occasional exception like the Falcon of course)?

From a gameplay perspective, from the very limited SW games I've played, it seems to take just as much time as the ST games which says to me that both systems are (relative to each other) balanced and each is set-up in a way that gives the two games their own flavor.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
Having played both games I find that while AW ships can take more damage they dish out more damage as well, so they tend to be as flimsy as a fighter. That is the vessels thst dont cloak. So far I've seen the D7, reliant, enterprise TOS & TNG and the valdore taken out in one shot. Now the attackers had good rolls, but from the shows the ships seem to be able to take quit a few barrages. IMHO
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
I would like the evade action become a evasive manuver action, which the captain is always shouting to the helsman on the shows. Especially since you can be attacked by more then one vessel in a round. I would say instead of taking one hit away add dice to your agility rating. Plus the ships may not be jinxing like a fighter but maybe moving to get a better angle or a stronger shield facing towards the incoming fire. Especially since in this game shields are generic and just grouped together.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Anderson
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
I'll play the Klingons
badge
I'll play the Klingons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
adorablerocket wrote:
Lezta wrote:
I agree to an extent - I think 1 is suitable for the largest ships (Galaxy, Negh'var etc.) but I'm surprised that 2 is the highest we've seen so far. I'd have thought the Defiant would have had 3 - it's a very nimble little ship.


Wait for the fighter squadrons... I bet they'll pack a small punch, maybe only 1 or 2 attack, but have 3 defense. I bet they'll also be able to carry one shot torpedoes or something...


Brace for impact...I tend to strongly dislike fighter rules mixed with capital space ship games...Also, I'm old school Trek where they don't seem to belong.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hadrian132 wrote:
Having played both games I find that while AW ships can take more damage they dish out more damage as well, so they tend to be as flimsy as a fighter. That is the vessels thst dont cloak. So far I've seen the D7, reliant, enterprise TOS & TNG and the valdore taken out in one shot. Now the attackers had good rolls, but from the shows the ships seem to be able to take quit a few barrages. IMHO


Sounds like questionable tactics combined with bad luck.

Quote:

I tend to strongly dislike fighter rules mixed with capital space ship games...Also, I'm old school Trek where they don't seem to belong.


LOL ... you realize by that logic X-Wing doesn't have fighter rules either ... what we really need to do is complain about car combat based rules applied to fighter games!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My group has all felt the game seems more fun with the lower agility but higher shields/hull. Getting even a single damage is a bit more gratifying than when we would go a round without any damage done.

Definitely both a personal preference thing and a setting thing considering the ease of destroying certain fighters if you can get a hit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric B.
United States
East Lansing
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MattHawke wrote:
My group has all felt the game seems more fun with the lower agility but higher shields/hull. Getting even a single damage is a bit more gratifying than when we would go a round without any damage done.

Definitely both a personal preference thing and a setting thing considering the ease of destroying certain fighters if you can get a hit.


This is interesting, as my group has found the opposite. I've only played a couple of 100pt ST:AW games now, but I find the damage is dealt much slower in ST:AW than in SW:X. I think this has to do with a couple features:

(A) Lower maneuverability so harder to line up shots and actually make consistent attacks
(B) Fewer ships per list, so fewer chances to roll attack die and maybe do damage or at least strip off Evade/Battlestations tokens before allies fire
(C) Cloaking giving ships 5-6 green dice
(D) Evasive Maneuvers being pretty universal across ships (and the best action for when you can't attack)
(E) Sulu. Sulu, Sulu, Sulu. Oh myyyyyy.....
(F) Indirectly related: lots more ways to repair shields and undo damage

Once ships get in range in X-Wing, damage starts flying pretty fast and ships start going boom. It's rare to have a turn in X-Wing where no damage is dealt. In my few forays into 100pt Trek, I'd say more turns result in no damage than result in any damage (but maybe we're just too heavily relying on things like Sulu, Cloaking, and defensive flying).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Rogue - I'll keep an eye out. Admittedly cloaking throws a wrench in that, but I think that's a neat and exceptional situation where you should miss a lot. I don't have all the ships to field yet so we see Galaxy played a lot with the firing arc and a lot of Klingons with higher attacks. Also, because I really dislike the model I haven't picked up a TOS Enterprise yet so no Sulu.

Kind of cool to hear that from the standpoint of the flexibility of the game. I get the sense that even without expansions there's a lot of gameplay depth based on some of these choices.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. E. Freeman
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
adorablerocket wrote:
[q="hadrian132"]Having played both games I find that while AW ships can take more damage they dish out more damage as well, so they tend to be as flimsy as a fighter. That is the vessels thst dont cloak. So far I've seen the D7, reliant, enterprise TOS & TNG and the valdore taken out in one shot. Now the attackers had good rolls, but from the shows the ships seem to be able to take quit a few barrages. IMHO


Quote:
Sounds like questionable tactics combined with bad luck.


Not necessarily questionable tactics. Usually a combination of slightly better than normal luck for the attacker and worse luck for the defender. There are so many ways to roll 5 dice or more and improve the quality of your rolls that 5 hits isn't all that uncommon. With cloaked ships it now comes down to rolling at least one evade and hoping for no damage dealing crits. My personal best on damage output was 6 hits and 2 crits on 7 dice from a Plasma Torpedo (8 total damage, 1 hit came from a Direct Hit) against an Enterptise D with 2 shields left. The defense dice seem really fickle. There is a 37.5% chance to roll an evade on the defense die. If you roll 6 dice you should get 2 evades (2.25 rounded down). I have rolled or witnessed rolled, zero evades by cloaked ships at least a dozen times. This makes cloaking a risky and exciting proposition indeed. My best defense roll was 5 evades on 6 dice. I have rolled 4 evades a couple of times and still taken damage.

Just counting big ships I've had 2 cloaked Vor'Cha destroyed by a single shot and witnessed another. I've destroyed a cloaked Negh'Var with one shot and witnessed another. Three of these have occurred in OP events, which kinda makes sense because of all the min/max going on.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tacullu64 wrote:
adorablerocket wrote:
[q="hadrian132"]Having played both games I find that while AW ships can take more damage they dish out more damage as well, so they tend to be as flimsy as a fighter. That is the vessels thst dont cloak. So far I've seen the D7, reliant, enterprise TOS & TNG and the valdore taken out in one shot. Now the attackers had good rolls, but from the shows the ships seem to be able to take quit a few barrages. IMHO


Quote:
Sounds like questionable tactics combined with bad luck.


Not necessarily questionable tactics. Usually a combination of slightly better than normal luck for the attacker and worse luck for the defender.


Sorry what I meant was if you see somebody's going to be rolling 5 attack dice you should be trying to stay at long range, stay out of their arc, or, if you're going to get hit, be doing an evade action (which means you should be cloaking well before getting in range and keeping target locks off you). Also your fleet should be designed to deal with those kinds of threats by distributing damage potential among many ships, taking initiative so you shoot first, or defense buffers like Sulu, Data, etc.

I agree that the dice can be fickle, my point is precisely because of that you need to rely on positioning as much as combat odds to succeed. To tie it back to your original point about what we see in the shows, I'm assuming all are highly trained naval officers and are using excellent positioning tactics and not just charging in and brawling.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. E. Freeman
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
adorablerocket wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
adorablerocket wrote:
[q="hadrian132"]Having played both games I find that while AW ships can take more damage they dish out more damage as well, so they tend to be as flimsy as a fighter. That is the vessels thst dont cloak. So far I've seen the D7, reliant, enterprise TOS & TNG and the valdore taken out in one shot. Now the attackers had good rolls, but from the shows the ships seem to be able to take quit a few barrages. IMHO


Quote:
Sounds like questionable tactics combined with bad luck.


Not necessarily questionable tactics. Usually a combination of slightly better than normal luck for the attacker and worse luck for the defender.


Sorry what I meant was if you see somebody's going to be rolling 5 attack dice you should be trying to stay at long range, stay out of their arc, or, if you're going to get hit, be doing an evade action (which means you should be cloaking well before getting in range and keeping target locks off you). Also your fleet should be designed to deal with those kinds of threats by distributing damage potential among many ships, taking initiative so you shoot first, or defense buffers like Sulu, Data, etc.

I agree that the dice can be fickle, my point is precisely because of that you need to rely on positioning as much as combat odds to succeed. To tie it back to your original point about what we see in the shows, I'm assuming all are highly trained naval officers and are using excellent positioning tactics and not just charging in and brawling.


I think we may be experiencing differences in our local metas. I am almost always facing 5 or more attack dice. The only way to avoid them is to give up the game, and that's not going to happen.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Anderson
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
I'll play the Klingons
badge
I'll play the Klingons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
adorablerocket wrote:


Quote:

I tend to strongly dislike fighter rules mixed with capital space ship games...Also, I'm old school Trek where they don't seem to belong.


LOL ... you realize by that logic X-Wing doesn't have fighter rules either ... what we really need to do is complain about car combat based rules applied to fighter games!


You might have misunderstood my intent. I have no problem with this rules system being used for X Wing. I have no problem with this rules system being used for Star Trek. I just don't want to have squadrons of fighters flying around the Enterprise 1701 with it then needing some anti-fighter weapon systems for swatting at flies. But I do realize that many do love the idea of fighters flying around the ships. To me that's more like Battlestar Galactica or B5. Probably a minority opinion though. However, fighter rules do tend take up time...away from the capital ships.

I'm actually one that brings up Car Wars when people get on a soap box about X Wing fighter rules being applied to Star Trek capital ships or when they speak of this just being a copy of Wings of War/Glory.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah, I see what you mean! Sorry! Since we seem to share the same soapbox I hope you'll forgive my hair trigger...

I agree that fighters don't belong in my 'classic' trek (TOS and TMP era) but TNG, and DS9 seem cool with them so I don't mind the game system supporting them. After all it makes it easier to prepare for the BSG and B5 conversions! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GamePlayer wrote:
I just don't want to have squadrons of fighters flying around the Enterprise 1701 with it then needing some anti-fighter weapon systems for swatting at flies. But I do realize that many do love the idea of fighters flying around the ships. To me that's more like Battlestar Galactica or B5.


The thing is, though, we know Runabouts easily fit in the Enterprise-D's shuttle bays. In the DS9 pilot, they note that the three Runabouts the station had came from the Enterprise.

Which class of ship we know to be modestly effective in battle - indeed, it was all DS9 had for two whole seasons, and several of them escorted the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey in the Federation's first real combat with the Dominion.

So...you've got something with that much firepower (phasers and torpedoes) that is small enough you can stuff in the shuttlebay of just a bog-standard cruiser...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't say "Runabout"! That word makes me shudder!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.