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Subject: Card draw mandatory rss

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Frank Otte
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Is card drawing mandatory? Especially:

(1) Is drawing up to your card limit at the end of your turn mandatory (if possible)? Working assumption: yes.

(2) Is using a bonus because of an adjacent city or keep with own shield token mandatory? Workiing assumption: yes.

(2) Is using the bonus of the day tactic "Planning" mandatory? Working assumption: No, because it says "may".
 
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Pawel Bulacz
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hmmm...
What is your reason for not drawing cards when you can?
I'm always short of cards on hand.
I always want more
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Frank Otte
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Simple: If I end my turn without cards on my hand, but with cards in my deck and deny to draw new cards, I can grant other players more turns, which would be especially useful in coop games:

- I am not obligated to announce the end of the round at the beginning of my next turn, because I still have cards in my deck.

- I would not have to discard a hand card in my next turn, because I have no hand cards.

So I could practically skip my turn without any disadvantages for me or for the other players.
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Tom Steynen
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You are only obligated to declare end of round when you have no cards in your deck and in your hand.

You are allowed to declare end of round when you have no cards in your deck but not obligated if you still have cards in your hand.
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Frank Otte
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Yes, I am aware of that, but this does not contradict to my statement at all: You are not allowed to declare the end of the round, if there are no cards in your hand, but still cards in your deck, right before your turn.

If you deny to draw cards at the end of your turn (if possible), then you will have no cards in your hand but cards in your deck at the start of your next turn. So you must do your turn, with no cards in your hand. This means actually, not using up any of your cards during this turn. And this means, granting the other players more turns.
 
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Luke Heineman
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Hermjard wrote:
Yes, I am aware of that, but this does not contradict to my statement at all: You are not allowed to declare the end of the round, if there are no cards in your hand, but still cards in your deck, right before your turn.

If you deny to draw cards at the end of your turn (if possible), then you will have no cards in your hand but cards in your deck at the start of your next turn. So you must do your turn, with no cards in your hand. This means actually, not using up any of your cards during this turn. And this means, granting the other players more turns.


I sincerely doubt you can do this. I would assume that you are required to draw up to your hand limit.
 
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Georg D.
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Hermjard wrote:
Yes, I am aware of that, but this does not contradict to my statement at all: You are not allowed to declare the end of the round, if there are no cards in your hand, but still cards in your deck, right before your turn.

If you deny to draw cards at the end of your turn (if possible), then you will have no cards in your hand but cards in your deck at the start of your next turn. So you must do your turn, with no cards in your hand. This means actually, not using up any of your cards during this turn. And this means, granting the other players more turns.


I don't get it. If you have no cards in your drawpile but (non-wound-)cards in your hand you don't have to declare end of round.
So where is the difference between
a) 2 cards in draw 4 in hand: play one, draw one - play one, draw one - declare end of round
and
b) 0 cards in draw, 6 in hand: play one, draw nothing - play one, draw nothing - declare end of round

In both cases the other players had the same number of turns. Only that in b) you ar more flexible what you want to do in your turns.
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Jeff Thornsen
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You are required to draw the cards.

The OP is saying that if it was optional, I could essentially never call the End of Round because I would simply always have 0 cards in hand, and at least 1 card in my deck, and therefore do nothing on each of my turns.

This is an important part of playing in co-op mode. If one player burns through their deck quickly, they can only stall for however many turns as he has cards in his hand + deck.
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Frank Otte
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Quote:
I don't get it. If you have no cards in your drawpile but (non-wound-)cards in your hand you don't have to declare end of round.


Because, with no cards in my hand, and still cards in my deck, I can effectively skip an infinite number of turns, as long as no other player declares end of round and the scenario end state is not yet entered.
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Georg D.
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Hermjard wrote:
Quote:
I don't get it. If you have no cards in your drawpile but (non-wound-)cards in your hand you don't have to declare end of round.


Because, with no cards in my hand, and still cards in my deck, I can effectively skip an infinite number of turns, as long as no other player declares end of round and the scenario end state is not yet entered.


You have to play a card each turn. This is part of the rules. So you can conclude that it is not allowed to bring yourself in a situation where you don't have any cards in your hand. (That is not stated in the rules but otherwise there would stand something what to do if you don't have a card but have to play one.)
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Olivier D.
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Also, co-op games use a dummy player as a timer, so you can't stall the game by playing 1 card a turn.

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Nicola Bocchetta
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Remember there is a dummy player in co-op scenarios.
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Frank Otte
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Quote:
You have to play a card each turn. This is part of the rules. So you can conclude that it is not allowed to bring yourself in a situation where you don't have any cards in your hand. (That is not stated in the rules but otherwise there would stand something what to do if you don't have a card but have to play one.)


Wrong. This case is explicitely stated in the rules, p. 5, paragraph "A players turn":

2. If your Deed deck is empty at the start of your turn, and if the End of the Round has not been announced yet, you may forfeit your turn and announce the End of the Round.
(...)
If you do not forfeit your turn, you have two options: playing a Regular turn, or Resting.
a. In both cases, you have to play or discard at least one card during or at the end of your turn (except if your hand is empty but there are still cards in your Deed deck at the beginning of your turn).
(...)
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Frank Otte
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mildaene wrote:
Also, co-op games use a dummy player as a timer, so you can't stall the game by playing 1 card a turn.


Indeed, but if I am the very first player in a round and made a "monster turn" with, let's say 10 cards, it could be nevertheless of significant use, if I deny to draw cards, to grant the other player more opportunities to use the cards of their decks.
 
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David desJardins
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Hermjard wrote:
(2) Is using the bonus of the day tactic "Planning" mandatory? Working assumption: No, because it says "may".


Planning doesn't say "may".

The answer to all of your questions about drawing cards is "of course".
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Georg D.
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Hermjard wrote:
Wrong. This case is explicitely stated in the rules, p. 5, paragraph "A players turn":

2. If your Deed deck is empty at the start of your turn, and if the End of the Round has not been announced yet, you may forfeit your turn and announce the End of the Round.
(...)
If you do not forfeit your turn, you have two options: playing a Regular turn, or Resting.
a. In both cases, you have to play or discard at least one card during or at the end of your turn (except if your hand is empty but there are still cards in your Deed deck at the beginning of your turn).
(...)


I stand corrected. But even with this text I would say that you have to draw up to your (modified) handlimit.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Hermjard wrote:
Because, with no cards in my hand, and still cards in my deck, I can effectively skip an infinite number of turns, as long as no other player declares end of round and the scenario end state is not yet entered.


Why?

In a cooperative scenario the dummy is going to time you out anyway.
In a competitive scenario you're ceding the game to your opponents by giving them more turns than you have.

The simple fact is that the rules say that you draw up to hand size: there's no optional "may" in the wording. The "loophole" you're asking about (which doesn't exist) wouldn't make sense from a strategic point anyway. If you want to skip turns to let your coop friend do more, then just discard one card per turn.
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Alison Mandible
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I agree with other posters that the rules pretty clearly say these are all mandatory.

But even if it were unclear, the golden rule of interpreting Vlaada's rules is, if it's really ambiguous, read the rule in the way which makes life harder for the player.
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Stephen
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Hermjard wrote:
If you do not forfeit your turn, you have two options: playing a Regular turn, or Resting.
a. In both cases, you have to play or discard at least one card during or at the end of your turn (except if your hand is empty but there are still cards in your Deed deck at the beginning of your turn).
(...)[/i]


As far as I can tell, the only way this can happen is if you were attacked by another player or Volkare, you didn't fully attend the combat, but you did use all of your cards. As far as drawing cards based on your level and adjacent keeps/city, unless it says "may" somewhere I don't see how it wouldn't be mandatory. Note that if it were legal, it could be useful to delay indefinitely in a co-op scenario against Volkare, since he never declares end of round.
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Klaude Thomas
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Hermjard wrote:
Is card drawing mandatory? Especially:

(1) Is drawing up to your card limit at the end of your turn mandatory (if possible)? Working assumption: yes.

(2) Is using a bonus because of an adjacent city or keep with own shield token mandatory? Workiing assumption: yes.

(2) Is using the bonus of the day tactic "Planning" mandatory? Working assumption: No, because it says "may".

I think this is an imaginative question, but the language used in the rules text doesn't give any scope for choosing not to draw.

'Draw cards from your Deed deck, up to your Hand limit...'

'....your Hand limit is increased...'

You are right however that 'may' appears in the text to do with increased hand limit (p4). Contrasting the p4 text with that on p9 though, it is clear that the word is used only to indicate that, depending on circumstances, you may be forced to apply a higher hand limit. Not that if you have a higher hand limit then you may choose to apply it. The passage is -

'Draws cards up to his Hand limit. (This may be increased if he is on or next to a keep or city...'
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