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Subject: Project Ares and prevention rss

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Sonny A.
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If corp overscores a Project Area by 2, and the runner only has 1 program and 1 sacrificial construct out.

Will runner be able to keep the program?
 
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Allan Clements
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yes, I believe so.

All cards are trashed at the same time, but construct interrupts before anything is actually trashed. I presume the runner can't choose the same cards multiple times either.

If the runner had to trash 1 card, and used construct to prevent it, I think the corp would not take bad publicity in this case (even though SC was trashed by it's own effect)
 
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Arto H
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FAQ says about Aggressive Secretary:

Quote:
When resolving the ability on an Aggressive Secretary with 2 advancement tokens, can the Corporation trash the same program twice? Does the Corporation decide to trash a program, resolve it, and then trash another? What if the Runner has a Sacrificial Construct installed?

Aggressive Secretary trashes the programs at the same time. The Corporation chooses both programs to trash, and then the programs are trashed. The Corporation can choose the same program more than once. However, trash prevention effects (such as Sacrificial Construct) can prevent a chosen program from being trashed, regardless of how many times it was chosen.


I would guess Ares follows same ruling.
 
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Allan Clements
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I actually presume it is not the same as Aggressive Secretary, since if the runner could pick the same card multiple times it would make Project Ares rather pointless
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Thomas R
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I think it's an open question as to how simultaneous "simultaneous" effects are. In this case, presumably, the runner designates all cards to be targeted by Project Ares, and then they are all destroyed simultaneously. Because Netrunner doesn't have analogs to either Magic's stack or it's regeneration shield, it's not clear that you can use the Sacrificial Construct to save a program when it is already in the process of being destroyed.

My thinking would be that Sacrificial Construct doesn't help you here specifically because: you can't sacrifice the Sacrificial Construct before the program is first destroyed because the window for prevent effects won't have gone off, but by the time that window does go off, the Sacrificial Construct itself will also be destroyed.
 
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Benjamin White
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anathomical wrote:
Because Netrunner doesn't have analogs to either Magic's stack or it's regeneration shield, it's not clear that you can use the Sacrificial Construct to save a program when it is already in the process of being destroyed.


Not generally, but in this specific instance there's an exception.

Quote:
Prevent or Avoid
Some card abilities use the words "prevent" or "avoid." Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


EDIT: Might be I'm reading it wrong, but I interpret that as meaning if an effect could be prevented you'd be free to trigger the prevention effect. Even if you had selected the Sacrificial Construct as one of the cards to be trashed.
 
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Thomas R
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benjibot wrote:
Quote:
Prevent or Avoid
Some card abilities use the words "prevent" or "avoid." Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


EDIT: Might be I'm reading it wrong, but I interpret that as meaning if an effect could be prevented you'd be free to trigger the prevention effect. Even if you had selected the Sacrificial Construct as one of the cards to be trashed.


This is, I think, precisely the problem. It's unclear whether or not the Sacrificial Construct has been destroyed by the Project Ares effect at the time that you can trigger prevention effects, or whether it is only ABOUT to be destroyed. I don't know that there is an existing analog in the rules, so I could see it going either way, really.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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anathomical wrote:
benjibot wrote:
Quote:
Prevent or Avoid
Some card abilities use the words "prevent" or "avoid." Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


EDIT: Might be I'm reading it wrong, but I interpret that as meaning if an effect could be prevented you'd be free to trigger the prevention effect. Even if you had selected the Sacrificial Construct as one of the cards to be trashed.


This is, I think, precisely the problem. It's unclear whether or not the Sacrificial Construct has been destroyed by the Project Ares effect at the time that you can trigger prevention effects, or whether it is only ABOUT to be destroyed. I don't know that there is an existing analog in the rules, so I could see it going either way, really.


Prevent must happen before resolution of the effect it's preventing. Since PA trashes multiple cards simultaneously, you can target the SC for trashing and then trash it to save another.
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Thomas R
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etherial wrote:
anathomical wrote:
benjibot wrote:
Quote:
Prevent or Avoid
Some card abilities use the words "prevent" or "avoid." Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


EDIT: Might be I'm reading it wrong, but I interpret that as meaning if an effect could be prevented you'd be free to trigger the prevention effect. Even if you had selected the Sacrificial Construct as one of the cards to be trashed.


This is, I think, precisely the problem. It's unclear whether or not the Sacrificial Construct has been destroyed by the Project Ares effect at the time that you can trigger prevention effects, or whether it is only ABOUT to be destroyed. I don't know that there is an existing analog in the rules, so I could see it going either way, really.


Prevent must happen before resolution of the effect it's preventing. Since PA trashes multiple cards simultaneously, you can target the SC for trashing and then trash it to save another.


I could see that interpretation, but I don't feel as if it's cut and dried. Especially given that the rules text don't say that prevention happens before resolution of prevented effects. The rules text specifies that prevention happens during the resolution of prevented effects. So the question becomes whether or not a card that is in the process of being trashed can, itself, be used as a prevent effect. I could see the answer being yes, but I could also see it being no here.
 
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Allan Clements
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You can stop Zaibatsu Loyalty from being exposed by using it, this happens before you expose it (nevermind that it is rezzed and thus visible anyway). This is also a prevent.

If someone uses Satellite Uplink to expose 2 cards, and one of them is Zaibatsu Loyalty, you can use Zaibatsu Loyalty to stop the other card from being exposed, even though Zaibatsu Loyalty would be revealed and then be unable to be exposed.
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Adam Perry
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i think that if sacrificial construct is targeted as part of the trashing, that it can't be used IN RESPONSE to save something from getting trashed. there's no stack in netrunner. prevent effects only take place the INSTANT their timing windows specify. you can't put a "sacrificial construct shield" on a program before that program's been trashed.


that's my interperetation but i think it should be clarified via FFG email
 
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Andrew Keddie
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anathomical wrote:
etherial wrote:
anathomical wrote:
benjibot wrote:
Quote:
Prevent or Avoid
Some card abilities use the words "prevent" or "avoid." Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


EDIT: Might be I'm reading it wrong, but I interpret that as meaning if an effect could be prevented you'd be free to trigger the prevention effect. Even if you had selected the Sacrificial Construct as one of the cards to be trashed.


This is, I think, precisely the problem. It's unclear whether or not the Sacrificial Construct has been destroyed by the Project Ares effect at the time that you can trigger prevention effects, or whether it is only ABOUT to be destroyed. I don't know that there is an existing analog in the rules, so I could see it going either way, really.


Prevent must happen before resolution of the effect it's preventing. Since PA trashes multiple cards simultaneously, you can target the SC for trashing and then trash it to save another.


I could see that interpretation, but I don't feel as if it's cut and dried. Especially given that the rules text don't say that prevention happens before resolution of prevented effects. The rules text specifies that prevention happens during the resolution of prevented effects. So the question becomes whether or not a card that is in the process of being trashed can, itself, be used as a prevent effect. I could see the answer being yes, but I could also see it being no here.


I disagree - the resolution of these effects isn't simultaneous; if it was then the Corp effect of trashing would always fire first on the Corp's turn.

What happens is that the act of trashing triggers the prevent effect on SC.

We know from the ruling on Aesop's/Daily Casts simultaneous effects that a newly triggered event takes precedence over the previous one, so you WOULD in fact resolve the prevent BEFORE the trash. The way I would interpret this, which I think is in keeping with the AggSec ruling is:

>Corp scores Ares with 6 counters
>Runner chooses to target a program and SC
>SC is now triggered, runner chooses to trash SC to save the program
>SC is no longer available to be trashed by Ares, so this effect does not resolve.

Probably best to get an official ruling though.
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Andrew Keddie
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experimilk wrote:
i think that if sacrificial construct is targeted as part of the trashing, that it can't be used IN RESPONSE to save something from getting trashed. there's no stack in netrunner. prevent effects only take place the INSTANT their timing windows specify. you can't put a "sacrificial construct shield" on a program before that program's been trashed.


that's my interperetation but i think it should be clarified via FFG email


There is no 'stack' of effects in Netrunner, however the rules do state that Prevent or Avoid effects are the ONLY effects which can interrupt another effect's resolution. SC is specifically a Prevent effect, so is triggered by, and can interrupt, a program trash caused by Ares.

But I agree an official ruling is desirable.
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Ben Finkel
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experimilk wrote:
i think that if sacrificial construct is targeted as part of the trashing, that it can't be used IN RESPONSE to save something from getting trashed. there's no stack in netrunner. prevent effects only take place the INSTANT their timing windows specify. you can't put a "sacrificial construct shield" on a program before that program's been trashed.


that's my interperetation but i think it should be clarified via FFG email


Prevent/avoid effects specifically break the "no stack rule" of Netrunner.

Quote:
Prevent or Avoid

Some card abilities use the words “prevent” or “avoid.” Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and an effect that is prevented or avoided is not resolved. Prevent or avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing or avoiding is resolving.


If they weren't stack-like, they wouldn't do anything, or you'd have to somehow read your opponent's mind to cancel their effects (like using Decoy to cancel a Data Raven counter tag or whatever).

As far as I understand trash-prevention, the player (in this case the runner) chooses the trash targets, then prevention effects can be declared and used, then the remaining trash effects occur. So if, as the runner, I had a program and a Sacrificial Construct and I had to deal with a 2-counter Ares, I could target the Sacrificial Construct and the program, then use Sacrificial Construct to cancel the program's trashing, and then Ares resolves without trashing anything. Consequentially, the Corp does not take bad publicity, despite my Sacrificial Construct being trashed (as I didn't trash it through Project Ares' ability, but rather its own).
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Steven Tu
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NEVER,
EVER,
EVER,
EVER,
SAY "IN RESPONSE" IN NETRUNNER.

IT DOES NOT EXIST.
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Sonny A.
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Azeltir wrote:

As far as I understand trash-prevention, the player (in this case the runner) chooses the trash targets, then prevention effects can be declared and used, then the remaining trash effects occur. So if, as the runner, I had a program and a Sacrificial Construct and I had to deal with a 2-counter Ares, I could target the Sacrificial Construct and the program, then use Sacrificial Construct to cancel the program's trashing, and then Ares resolves without trashing anything. Consequentially, the Corp does not take bad publicity, despite my Sacrificial Construct being trashed (as I didn't trash it through Project Ares' ability, but rather its own).


This is also how I would interpret it, but I wanted to put the question out there to hear the opinion of others.

But as usual, a timing issue can spark quite a debate.
 
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Kevin Jones
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I don't think anyone has gone to the card's details yet, which pretty much render the arguments irrelevent.

Project Ares wrote:
When you score Project Ares, the Runner trashes 1 of his or her installed cards for each advancement token on Project Ares over 4. If the runner trashes at least 1 card, take 1 bad publicity.


The runner must trash installed cards, so he can choose which cards get trashed. No cards prevent trashing without being trashed themselves, so you'd just trash them first. So sure, you can trash your Sacrificial Constructs as if they are preventing other programs, but the truth is they are just getting trashed.

So to answer the initial question: if the runner has equal or fewer cards installed than he needs to trash, she trashes all of them. If the runner has more cards installed than he needs to trash, he can pick which cards will be trashed and can protect at least one of his installed cards.
 
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Allan Clements
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If you have 3 cards installed, and need to trash 4 cards, and one of them is a Sacrificial Construct, you can use it to save a program and you will have a program left over afterwards, even though you have to trash more cards than you had in play.

 
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Andrew Keddie
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Rognik wrote:
I don't think anyone has gone to the card's details yet, which pretty much render the arguments irrelevent.

Project Ares wrote:
When you score Project Ares, the Runner trashes 1 of his or her installed cards for each advancement token on Project Ares over 4. If the runner trashes at least 1 card, take 1 bad publicity.


The runner must trash installed cards, so he can choose which cards get trashed. No cards prevent trashing without being trashed themselves, so you'd just trash them first. So sure, you can trash your Sacrificial Constructs as if they are preventing other programs, but the truth is they are just getting trashed.

So to answer the initial question: if the runner has equal or fewer cards installed than he needs to trash, she trashes all of them. If the runner has more cards installed than he needs to trash, he can pick which cards will be trashed and can protect at least one of his installed cards.


Rognik, I think the idea that's being thrown around here is that the runner could trash a single SC instead of trashing two cards.

As mentioned above, I think that this is actually plausible, due to the runner being the one who chooses, and choosing to target both SC and a program (assuming Ares with 2 x over-advancement). The program being about to trash then triggers SC, allowing SC to be trashed instead of the program. Under this reasoning, SC saves the program, and Ares has nothing else to trash because SC is already gone.

Weird by-product of this is that the Corp might not actually receive any BP, but that's dubious.
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Kevin Jones
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Rognik, I think the idea that's being thrown around here is that the runner could trash a single SC instead of trashing two cards.

As mentioned above, I think that this is actually plausible, due to the runner being the one who chooses, and choosing to target both SC and a program (assuming Ares with 2 x over-advancement). The program being about to trash then triggers SC, allowing SC to be trashed instead of the program. Under this reasoning, SC saves the program, and Ares has nothing else to trash because SC is already gone.

Weird by-product of this is that the Corp might not actually receive any BP, but that's dubious.
That doesn't work, though. You trash Sacrificial Construct instead of a program? What exactly is the difference from just trashing SC in the first place? Once it's trashed, it can't be used to save anything else, either. All the rule clarifications have made it clear that you can't double-dip, and this is another case.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Rognik wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Rognik, I think the idea that's being thrown around here is that the runner could trash a single SC instead of trashing two cards.

As mentioned above, I think that this is actually plausible, due to the runner being the one who chooses, and choosing to target both SC and a program (assuming Ares with 2 x over-advancement). The program being about to trash then triggers SC, allowing SC to be trashed instead of the program. Under this reasoning, SC saves the program, and Ares has nothing else to trash because SC is already gone.

Weird by-product of this is that the Corp might not actually receive any BP, but that's dubious.
That doesn't work, though. You trash Sacrificial Construct instead of a program? What exactly is the difference from just trashing SC in the first place? Once it's trashed, it can't be used to save anything else, either. All the rule clarifications have made it clear that you can't double-dip, and this is another case.


You're selecting Sacrificial Construct as a "target" for the Project Ares trash effect, and then interrupting that trash effect with the prevent ability of Sacrificial Construct to prevent a program trash. This isn't "double dipping", as your not paying a cost with Sacrificial Construct or the program you'd otherwise trash.

I'm firmly on the side that says the corp gets no Bad Publicity for this. The one slight niggle is that Project Ares says "If the runner trashes at least 1 card" not "If the runner trashes at least 1 card due to Project Ares" or something similarly strict. But I can't find an example of a card in this game that would react to a prevent/avoid effect like the "would gain a bad publicity in this case" interpretation of Project Ares does.
 
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Kevin Jones
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Azeltir wrote:
You're selecting Sacrificial Construct as a "target" for the Project Ares trash effect, and then interrupting that trash effect with the prevent ability of Sacrificial Construct to prevent a program trash. This isn't "double dipping", as your not paying a cost with Sacrificial Construct or the program you'd otherwise trash.
Um... either the Sacrificial Construct is already trashed through Project Ares, or you choose to trash it instead of a program/hardware. Either way, I don't see how this is different, nor does it reduce the number of cards that need to be trashed. Plus, as Sacrificial Construct is a Resource and can only prevent against Program or Hardware trashing, it can't protect other Resources. So... how is Sacrificial Construct protecting anything in any of these scenarios?
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Rognik wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
You're selecting Sacrificial Construct as a "target" for the Project Ares trash effect, and then interrupting that trash effect with the prevent ability of Sacrificial Construct to prevent a program trash. This isn't "double dipping", as your not paying a cost with Sacrificial Construct or the program you'd otherwise trash.
Um... either the Sacrificial Construct is already trashed through Project Ares, or you choose to trash it instead of a program/hardware. Either way, I don't see how this is different, nor does it reduce the number of cards that need to be trashed. Plus, as Sacrificial Construct is a Resource and can only prevent against Program or Hardware trashing, it can't protect other Resources. So... how is Sacrificial Construct protecting anything in any of these scenarios?


In the case of Aggressive Secretary it was ruled that the Corp player can choose the same target multiple times, but a single SC can prevent it from trashing. That suggests that targeting occurs simultaneously before resolution. (If I'm mis-remembering the AggSec ruling, please correct me).

If you use the same logic with Ares, bearing in mind that the runner gets to choose the targets:

>(assuming 2 cards need to be trashed) runner targets SC and another card (a program, say)
>when resolving trash effect on program, SC is triggered. We know from the ruling on Aesop's/Daily Casts that if you encounter a new trigger while resolving a previous one, the new one takes precedence (that's the only interpretation that makes sense anyway).

So this is where it gets tricky. There's an argument to be made that because SC has now been triggered and resolves first, it can prevent the program trash by trashing itself. As it was the other choice of program to be trashed, and it's already gone, well too bad.

Now this does seem a bit unfair to me (I don't even know WHY they printed Ares as the runner gets to choose, unless it was specifically to try and stop Console trashing or similar...) and the best counter-argument I can see is this:

Although the runner gets to choose which cards are targeted, it's still the Corp player's turn, and as such s/he should get to choose the order of trashing, in which case the SC can be trashed before the program, safely trashing both.

Alas, I don't know if either of these interpretations is correct. Might just have to send to Lukas for an answer.

Edit: Also, note that Ares doesn't specify 'trash a resource', it specifies 'trash an installed card'.
 
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Matthew McFarland
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Azeltir wrote:
As far as I understand trash-prevention, the player (in this case the runner) chooses the trash targets, then prevention effects can be declared and used, then the remaining trash effects occur. So if, as the runner, I had a program and a Sacrificial Construct and I had to deal with a 2-counter Ares, I could target the Sacrificial Construct and the program, then use Sacrificial Construct to cancel the program's trashing, and then Ares resolves without trashing anything. Consequentially, the Corp does not take bad publicity, despite my Sacrificial Construct being trashed (as I didn't trash it through Project Ares' ability, but rather its own).


I am 100% positive this is how the ruling will come down. It's consistent and makes the most sense.
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
In the case of Aggressive Secretary it was ruled that the Corp player can choose the same target multiple times, but a single SC can prevent it from trashing. That suggests that targeting occurs simultaneously before resolution. (If I'm mis-remembering the AggSec ruling, please correct me).
This is true, but the problem is that the card specifically says that the runner chooses. Thus, the corp can only force the runner to trash X cards. I'm pretty sure the runner wouldn't be able to choose the same card more than once, nor use a prevent card to reduce the number of cards trashed unless it specifically says it does so. Also, there aren't targets in this case: the runner just trashes a card.

Now, I know the rules don't specifically say so, but I presume in this case, the order of the cards trashed is more sequentially than simultaneously. Trying to assume they are simultaneous, then removing SC through its ability to protect another card, seems to go against the spirit of the card, which ultimately is what is most important as far as rules go. So I think it's pretty safe to say that if the runner has to trash 3 cards, and there are only 3 installed cards, all the cards must be trashed, no matter what they are.
 
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