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Subject: Need feedback about the Upgrade Pack rss

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Jack Darwid
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From the beginning of the GvZ KS project, the backers keep giving me suggestions about playmats/tokens/better box. Because of that, we have the idea to put all those things together in the Upgrade Pack. The Upgrade Pack will consist of 18 Tokens, 3 Playmats and a bigger box to hold everything inside (including a space for the game). So the journey began. We searched for the best material and contacting many different suppliers....

At last the Upgrade Pack's prototype is ready. The good news: everything has a very good quality, the box is thick and sturdy, the tokens are shiny and heavy, and the mats are thick enough and satisfying. The bad news: the weight. The total is around 420 grams (excluding packaging material), means we must use the shipping cost for 500 grams, almost double from the shipping cost for 250 grams.

We want to give you the best, but of course it has it's own price. Here's the detail:
1 Bigger box to contain everything (including the game of GvZ).
3 Playmats (30x40cm each) made from a kind of cloth/banner material (I think it has some rubber material mixed inside).
18 Tokens made of acrylic+resin.

Note:
- The Upgrade Pack is an add-on and will not include the GvZ game (but you can put the GvZ game inside the bigger box)
- we will finish the game first and the Upgrade Pack second. This means we can ship the game first to you, or we can ship the game later together with the Upgrade Pack (and we can save a bit of shipping cost, thank you!).
- The Upgrade Pack is not a necessity but it will make the game looks super duper cool!
- Why not sell the content of this Upgrade Pack separately? Two reasons. One: if you buy only the tokens/mats, there's no way to put them with the game unless you use an additional box (and a box with GvZ artwork will be cooler, right?). Two: since the shipping cost is high, the best way is to put everything in one package.Three (did we say two?): it's easier that way for us to produce.

The price: with all those above, the price for the Upgrade Pack will be $38, including shipping worldwide. Take a look at the picture below (note that everything in the picture is in prototype version, the final version will be a bit different, we plan to make some improvements for the final version).




OPTION B: we can lower the price. How? Make the Upgrade Pack weight less. How? We will change the mats with a printed thin cloth so we can fold the mats four times, so the box can be cut by half in size. Hopefully the final weight is less than 250 grams (if not maybe we will downgrade the tokens too). The final price will be around $30 for this option.
Note: I'm not very sure that Option B can have less than 250 grams, but if the first option above is unfavorable, we will continue our search.

THE POLL IS CLOSED. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION

Poll
We can make only one version. Which one do you want, the current version or the Option B version?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
The current version ($38)
72.5% 29
Make Option B / cheaper version ($30)
27.5% 11
Voters 40
This poll is now closed.   40 answers
Poll created by JackDarwid
Closes: Sat Oct 5, 2013 6:00 am


Thank you!

JackD

Edit for FAQ:
1. An explanation about shipping:
We will give the priority to produce the game first over the Upgrade Pack.
There will be 3 shipping time: AoD (right after the KS ends since AoD is ready), the GvZ game (after the GvZ game is ready), then the Upgrade Pack (after the Upgrade Pack is ready).

2. What price you will put on the shipping documents?
I will put the price minus shipping minus KS+Amazon fees. For 1 copy of the Upgrade Pack to Europe: $38-$16-$3,8=$18,2.
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What if you made the tokens smaller?
 
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Andrew C
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Please sure the cards still fit when sleeved
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Eirik Johnsbråten
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The only reason I voted for option B was that I will only buy a pack that's below $35, or I'd have to start messing with import duty. If I could get the better quality kit and the game shipped to me in two shipments, each lower than that, I'd want that.

But will there still be an option to just buy the game at $22 (with the area 3 cards)?
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Rudy Van den Broecke
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Tjohei wrote:
The only reason I voted for option B was that I will only buy a pack that's below $35, or I'd have to start messing with import duty. If I could get the better quality kit and the game shipped to me in two shipments, each lower than that, I'd want that.


Splitting the shipment might be a good idea, That way mini expansions could be added to the game too without passing the import duty limit.

Tjohei wrote:
But will there still be an option to just buy the game at $22 (with the area 3 cards)?


Of course since the upgrade box is just an add-on.
Jack, Maybe have 2 extra pledgelevels? One with the basegame and upgrade box shipped together. And one with the both shipped seperatly.

Jack what Will be the price That Will be written on the paper for customs for the game and upgraded box?
 
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Jack Darwid
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trmptdrummer wrote:
What if you made the tokens smaller?
At first I made the tokens that big because it's a cut out from 2 cards (in the original form), so bigger = easier to pick up. With the upgrade tokens now, it's very possible to make them smaller. I already asked to make them smaller, but they said that smaller tokens are harder to made. I'll ask them again, hopefully they can do it.

Cleitus the Black wrote:
Please sure the cards still fit when sleeved
Without the Upgrade Pack, it's not possible to sleeve the cards and put them back in the original box, since the original box will be a tight tuckbox. With the Upgrade Pack, there are plenty of spaces available for sleeves.

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Jack Darwid
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Tjohei wrote:
The only reason I voted for option B was that I will only buy a pack that's below $35, or I'd have to start messing with import duty. If I could get the better quality kit and the game shipped to me in two shipments, each lower than that, I'd want that.

vdbmalmsteen wrote:
Splitting the shipment might be a good idea, That way mini expansions could be added to the game too without passing the import duty limit.
Already explained above (the second Note):
- we will finish the game first and the Upgrade Pack second. This means we can ship the game first to you, or we can ship the game later together with the Upgrade Pack (and we can save a bit of shipping cost, thank you!).

Tjohei wrote:
But will there still be an option to just buy the game at $22 (with the area 3 cards)?
vdbmalmsteen wrote:
Of course since the upgrade box is just an add-on.
Yes. The Upgrade Pack will be an add-on, an option. If you want it, just add it in your pledge total.

vdbmalmsteen wrote:
Jack, Maybe have 2 extra pledgelevels? One with the basegame and upgrade box shipped together. And one with the both shipped seperatly.
I don't think that will be necessary since it will make the pledge levels complicated. I believe at the end of the Kickstarter I can send a survey, and those information can be send to me through that survey.

There will be 3 shipping time: AoD (right after the KS ends since AoD is ready), the GvZ game (right after the GvZ game is ready), then the Upgrade Pack (after the Upgrade Pack is ready).

Quote:
Jack what Will be the price That Will be written on the paper for customs for the game and upgraded box?
I usually put only the price of a game without shipping, since I believe that shipping is not part of the price of a game.

Note: the Upgrade Pack is not final yet, depending on the result of the Poll above.
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Rudy Van den Broecke
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So short version:

JackDarwid wrote:
There will be 3 shipping time:
AoD (right after the KS ends)
the game (right after the game is ready)
then the Upgrade Pack (after the Upgrade Pack is ready).

or we can ship the game later together with the Upgrade Pack (and we can save a bit of shipping cost, thank you!).


I think that gives enough possibilities to everyone In that case I'll go for the $38 upgrade and I don't see a reason why other shouldn't either (execept if you don't wanna pay the price).
 
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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vdbmalmsteen wrote:
So short version:

JackDarwid wrote:
There will be 3 shipping time:
AoD (right after the KS ends)
the game (right after the game is ready)
then the Upgrade Pack (after the Upgrade Pack is ready).

or we can ship the game later together with the Upgrade Pack (and we can save a bit of shipping cost, thank you!).


I think that gives enough possibilities to everyone In that case I'll go for the $38 upgrade and I don't see a reason why other shouldn't either (execept if you don't wanna pay the price).


The reason would be that higher price = higher chance to get picked up in customs, which doubles the price .
 
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mortenmdk wrote:
vdbmalmsteen wrote:
So short version:

JackDarwid wrote:
There will be 3 shipping time:
AoD (right after the KS ends)
the game (right after the game is ready)
then the Upgrade Pack (after the Upgrade Pack is ready).

or we can ship the game later together with the Upgrade Pack (and we can save a bit of shipping cost, thank you!).


I think that gives enough possibilities to everyone In that case I'll go for the $38 upgrade and I don't see a reason why other shouldn't either (execept if you don't wanna pay the price).


The reason would be that higher price = higher chance to get picked up in customs, which doubles the price .


True but you can split the shipments
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vdbmalmsteen wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
vdbmalmsteen wrote:
So short version:

JackDarwid wrote:
There will be 3 shipping time:
AoD (right after the KS ends)
the game (right after the game is ready)
then the Upgrade Pack (after the Upgrade Pack is ready).

or we can ship the game later together with the Upgrade Pack (and we can save a bit of shipping cost, thank you!).


I think that gives enough possibilities to everyone In that case I'll go for the $38 upgrade and I don't see a reason why other shouldn't either (execept if you don't wanna pay the price).


The reason would be that higher price = higher chance to get picked up in customs, which doubles the price .


True but you can split the shipments


True , but AFAIK $38 minus shipping, which from what I can tell is less than $18, is more than the limit for getting picked up in customs here in Denmark, so the upgrade pack alone would trigger the customs fee.
 
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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@Jack, could you tell us what the price of the upgrade packs alone without shipping would be for the two options?
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mortenmdk wrote:
vdbmalmsteen wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
vdbmalmsteen wrote:

I think that gives enough possibilities to everyone In that case I'll go for the $38 upgrade and I don't see a reason why other shouldn't either (execept if you don't wanna pay the price).


The reason would be that higher price = higher chance to get picked up in customs, which doubles the price .


True but you can split the shipments


True , but AFAIK $38 minus shipping, which from what I can tell is less than $18, is more than the limit for getting picked up in customs here in Denmark, so the upgrade pack alone would trigger the customs fee.


I just reread my answers to you, Rudy, and it appears to me that they could be interpreted as being a bit combative, but they really weren't meant that way. They were written and meant with a smile - just wanted to make sure, that I didn't come off the wrong way .
 
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$38 - $16 (shipping) - $3,8 (KS+Amazon) = $18,2

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JackDarwid wrote:
$38 - $16 (shipping) - $3,8 (KS+Amazon) = $18,2



Thanks, and would the other option be something like $30 - $9 (shipping) - $3,0 (KS+Amazon) = $18?
 
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mortenmdk wrote:
JackDarwid wrote:
$38 - $16 (shipping) - $3,8 (KS+Amazon) = $18,2



Thanks, and would the other option be something like $30 - $9 (shipping) - $3,0 (KS+Amazon) = $18?
Yes.
 
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JackDarwid wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
JackDarwid wrote:
$38 - $16 (shipping) - $3,8 (KS+Amazon) = $18,2



Thanks, and would the other option be something like $30 - $9 (shipping) - $3,0 (KS+Amazon) = $18?
Yes.


OK, thanks, then there's not much of a difference in that regard .
 
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mortenmdk wrote:
JackDarwid wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
JackDarwid wrote:
$38 - $16 (shipping) - $3,8 (KS+Amazon) = $18,2



Thanks, and would the other option be something like $30 - $9 (shipping) - $3,0 (KS+Amazon) = $18?
Yes.


OK, thanks, then there's not much of a difference in that regard .

Almost the same, but for Option B it is still an assumption (around $30), I should do some more research about the mats and box and (probably) the tokens, since I must go under 250 grams.
 
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Thanks for the info. Have changed my vote. When you do it, do it good, I say.
 
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JackDarwid wrote:
Without the Upgrade Pack, it's not possible to sleeve the cards and put them back in the original box, since the original box will be a tight tuckbox. With the Upgrade Pack, there are plenty of spaces available for sleeves.

How sturdy is the tuckbox gonna be? Videos of Adventures of D's tuckbox didn't impress me. Will there be enough room in the tuckbox for the tokens and what material are the tokens made of?
 
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@ Mortan: I didn't see a problem. We're all in this together trying to find the best solution for the game.

So far this is the situation: cost + shippings (amazon and kickstarterfees have been removed). I hope I didn't make any errors.

The base game is 11,8$ - below 250 grams

The upgrade pack option 1: 18,2$ - 220 grams
The tokens (included in the upgradeprice) - 50grams - Made of acrylic+resin.
The mats (included in the upgradeprice) option 1 - 150 grams - Made of some kind of cloth/banner material (I think it has some rubber material mixed inside).

The upgrade pack option 2: 18$ - hoping below 250g
The tokens (included in the upgradeprice) - 50grams - Made of acrylic+resin.
The mats (included in the upgradeprice) option 2 - ???grams - printed thin cloth

Shipping 250 grams = $9
Shipping 500 grams = $16

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Crossposting (most) from the comments thread in the KS:

d10-1 I'm quite torn between the options. On the one hand, the current prototype looks awesome. On the other hand, $38 might be enough to make customs take notice, so that would be a big no-no for me. Because of this I'm leaning towards the $30 option. Other than that, paying just $8 extra for a nicer box + better mats + better tokens does seem like a better deal. (BTW, the tokens are awesome!)

d10-2 For the same reasons (customs), I'm wary of going with the single shipment option - I would be happy to wait a little if that helps Jack reduce costs, but that would make the total declared value be way over the free limit. If shipments are coming from Jack personally, he could state that the shipments are of a personal nature - that should make the customs threshold be 45 € (about $60) instead of 22 € (about $30). But I don't really know much about that option.

d10-3 I gather that if Option A is chosen there would still be some room with regards to weight (not that much, but still). You could compound this by offering a few extra cards with the Upgrade Pack - kind of a mini-expansion, if you will. That could also circumvent possible weight limit problems for adding cards to the base game.

d10-4 There's kind of a cool Easter egg in the update - I'm really digging the Goblin card redesign! You can see it quite well in the full-size image of the prototype box:

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1783442/jackdarwid?size=origi...

d10-5 There are some small details to correct in the box (it says "number of player" instead of "players" on the side, and the number of different Goblins in the top right corner can't really be distinguished), but you are already aware of them.

d10-6 While I like the overall design of the mat, the colors seem to be a little subdued - the ones in the prototype cards are more intense. This is noticeable if you compare the palisade, grass, etc. in the background of the Goblin cards to the mat. I would go for more saturated colors, if possible.

Cheers everybody! I have voted for the $30 option because of the ghost of customs, but as long as we can be reasonably sure that it won't make a difference with customs, I do think that the extra $8 is well justified.
 
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FacelessYouth wrote:
JackDarwid wrote:
Without the Upgrade Pack, it's not possible to sleeve the cards and put them back in the original box, since the original box will be a tight tuckbox. With the Upgrade Pack, there are plenty of spaces available for sleeves.

How sturdy is the tuckbox gonna be? Videos of Adventures of D's tuckbox didn't impress me. Will there be enough room in the tuckbox for the tokens and what material are the tokens made of?
Hi!
Because of the high shipping cost, I have to make the game under 250 grams (including the shipping material), since more than that the shipping cost will be almost doubled.

While the cards are thick and durable, the AoD box is quite a standard tuckbox, sufficient but not thick enough. At first I want to upgrade the GvZ box to a thicker material (means I have to reduce the cards count in GvZ than in AoD), but then backers asking for the mats/tokens/better box.
I choose to satisfy those request with the Upgrade Pack and use the extra weight on the GvZ game to add more cards in the game (I playtest some new cards now). This way the GvZ game gets some new cards content, and with the Upgrade Pack you can have better tokens/box/mats.

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andvaranaut wrote:
Crossposting (most) from the comments thread in the KS:

d10-1 I'm quite torn between the options. On the one hand, the current prototype looks awesome. On the other hand, $38 might be enough to make customs take notice, so that would be a big no-no for me. Because of this I'm leaning towards the $30 option. Other than that, paying just $8 extra for a nicer box + better mats + better tokens does seem like a better deal. (BTW, the tokens are awesome!)

d10-2 For the same reasons (customs), I'm wary of going with the single shipment option - I would be happy to wait a little if that helps Jack reduce costs, but that would make the total declared value be way over the free limit. If shipments are coming from Jack personally, he could state that the shipments are of a personal nature - that should make the customs threshold be 45 € (about $60) instead of 22 € (about $30). But I don't really know much about that option.

d10-3 I gather that if Option A is chosen there would still be some room with regards to weight (not that much, but still). You could compound this by offering a few extra cards with the Upgrade Pack - kind of a mini-expansion, if you will. That could also circumvent possible weight limit problems for adding cards to the base game.

d10-4 There's kind of a cool Easter egg in the update - I'm really digging the Goblin card redesign! You can see it quite well in the full-size image of the prototype box:

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1783442/jackdarwid?size=origi...

d10-5 There are some small details to correct in the box (it says "number of player" instead of "players" on the side, and the number of different Goblins in the top right corner can't really be distinguished), but you are already aware of them.

d10-6 While I like the overall design of the mat, the colors seem to be a little subdued - the ones in the prototype cards are more intense. This is noticeable if you compare the palisade, grass, etc. in the background of the Goblin cards to the mat. I would go for more saturated colors, if possible.

Cheers everybody! I have voted for the $30 option because of the ghost of customs, but as long as we can be reasonably sure that it won't make a difference with customs, I do think that the extra $8 is well justified.
1) On the shipping paper it will be $38 - $16 - $3,8 = $18,2.

2) We will do all the shipping ourselves. The backers can choose to ship separately or in one shipping. I will ask about this in the survey after the KS project ends (and hopefully we get funded ).

3) The Upgrade Pack has a bigger size, this means the packaging material will be bigger too. And it will have some hollow space inside for the GvZ game, so I have to put some something(paper) to fill in the space to give more strength to the box. I will check how many grams we have left after all that.

4) Sharp eye! That's our first try. Just a Goblin card though. The Zombie cards will be much harder to redesign. Will try that after this.

5) Yes, many things to be corrected and improved. The box is just to show the material, since the text / picture are thrown in quickly. Later before we print anything we will show them to the backers first for feedback.

6) Yes, that's a choice to make the color softer so the cards can pop. We try with a standard/stronger color, and the mat looks too busy with the cards around.
And the cards in that picture use the same material with the mat (since we have some space to fill in because the minimum is 1x1m to print the mat), not the real cards.

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vdbmalmsteen wrote:
@ Mortan: I didn't see a problem. We're all in this together trying to find the best solution for the game.


Great, and I completely agree .
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