Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
70 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: Surprising Klingon Bird-of-Prey stats and implications... rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steve Smith
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow! As revealed in another thread the Ch'Tang is:
4 attack
1 agility
3 hull
3 shields
for 22 points

Following the pattern of every other ship unique/generic relationship, that would put the generic Klingon Bird-of-Prey at:
4 attack
1 agility
3 hull
2 shields
for 20 points

Five of those in a 100 point swarm is pretty good as are four beefed-up.

Yet, I'm a bit shocked by the stats. The B'rel class Bird-of-Prey, as this one is listed on the Ch'Tang card, is a small scout class vessel that a Constitution class Federation ship outgunned 10 to 1, as Kruge stated in ST III: Search for Spock.

I would have thought:
3 attack
2 agility
3 hull
2 shields
for 20 points

Was anyone else shocked by the high firepower and low agility?

I'm not sure if I want to make a BoP swarm now. With such a low agility I'm guessing that they'll be shot down like flies. What's everyone else's opinion on the Klingon BoP stats?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Whaley
United States
Cincinnati
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's the ants vs the grasshopper battle.
Grasshopper has better armor/agility, but ants possess more power due to numbers.

I'm imagining success with 4 or 5 BoPs would depend on how well you fly/maneuver as well as how well you anticipate your foe's maneuvers. If you can stay 3 to 5 on 1, I'm thinking the BoPs would supply some truly devastating hits to a single ship (12 to 20 attack die base alone with 3 to 5 ships).

But if the fleet gets separated out or your opponent can get behind them and start cherry picking you, I think they'd go down fairly quickly if they're relying on cloaks. And if fighting against someone who has a weapon or crew upgrade that bypasses your shields to impact your hull directly you could still be at a disadvantage going up against paired ships flying formation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will Sanchez
United States
Clermont
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
also remember when fielding large swarms that most of your captains will probably be firing last (generics skill 1), and 5 combined hit points is within OHKO against fatty ships (which can usually fire with upto 7 attacks with a combat enhancer).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
traitor armor
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Stormtrooper721 wrote:

Following the pattern of every other ship unique/generic relationship, that would put the generic Klingon Bird-of-Prey at:


The I.R.W. Praetus has already broke that pattern.



I am quite interested to see the rest of the cards revealed........and how LE ships compare to their general release counterparts (I think the Nov LE P.W.B. Aj’rmr/D’deridex-class will be the first). I'm not anticipating any alteration(in stats) but I'd like to check that one off for sure.



Stormtrooper721 wrote:
I'm not sure if I want to make a BoP swarm now. With such a low agility I'm guessing that they'll be shot down like flies. What's everyone else's opinion on the Klingon BoP stats?


Loving it, really.

Coming from X-wing, if you're using the term 'swarm' you need to understand that your team isn't going to come out unscathed.

But for the BoP, it's the Klingon ship for me so I'll be very happy to run 3+ of them at a time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C. E. Freeman
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I would think 3 BOP with Gowron in a Vor'Cha Class would be best. That would be 90 points, so 10 left to upgrade your ships or improve their captain ratings. You'd have four 5 dice attacks at your disposal for as long as you last, which I don't think will be very long. I'm not sold on swarms yet.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don D.
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would not be surprised to see the generic version be significantly less powerful. IIRC, the named ship had some upgrades or something done to it for the dominion war. Even if not explicitly stated, I think it is a safe assumption to make.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Ptak
United States
Livermore
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I expected more cleverness out of the Bird of Prey also. High agility, low-attacks, but great turns and the ability to take upgrades to make their shots actually hit better or hit harder. Almost like the A-Wing of Attack Wing.

Don't know if it's worth hoping for the Bounty/Qel'Poh to have different stats, since both of them are B'rel birds.

Chang's bird of prey would also have lent itself to clever play too, through constant cloak use.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O B
United States
Mountainview
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Stormtrooper721 wrote:

I would have thought:
3 attack
2 agility
3 hull
2 shields
for 20 points

Was anyone else shocked by the high firepower and low agility?


Oh with that kind of firepower I think they'll make an incredible swarm!

I would have kept agility at 1 but dropped attack to 3.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Smith
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Norsehound wrote:
I expected more cleverness out of the Bird of Prey also. High agility, low-attacks, but great turns and the ability to take upgrades to make their shots actually hit better or hit harder.

Chang's bird of prey would also have lent itself to clever play too, through constant cloak use.


Exactly! As it is now, the Klingon BoP is just a K'Tinga class cruiser with one less hull and a better maneuver dial.

I'm also pining for Chang's BoP and a much better Chang.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Gould
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
traitorarmor wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:

Following the pattern of every other ship unique/generic relationship, that would put the generic Klingon Bird-of-Prey at:


The I.R.W. Praetus has already broke that pattern.


Depends what the point value of the generic BoP comes in at. I'm expecting the lack of stat reduction to be matched by it costing the same as the unique.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
traitor armor
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
anyGould wrote:
traitorarmor wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:

Following the pattern of every other ship unique/generic relationship, that would put the generic Klingon Bird-of-Prey at:


The I.R.W. Praetus has already broke that pattern.


Depends what the point value of the generic BoP comes in at. I'm expecting the lack of stat reduction to be matched by it costing the same as the unique.


OK, but the I.R.W. Praetus and the genaric Romulan 'Bird of Prey Class' have broken the pattern of +1 shield for the named version.........if it cost the same, 1 pt less or 50 pts more that pattern has been broken.

I'm not sure if its going to cost the same......going from what we know about the point allocation I can certainly see the rational as to why it could be expected....just doesn't feel right to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
lars mallach
msg tools
mbmb
I really hate to nitpik but having a bird of prey have a higher attack then the Defiant REALLY bothers me. I would be ok with them both having 4 attack dice but a lower number is ridiculous.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric B.
United States
East Lansing
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
agntorenge wrote:
I really hate to nitpik but having a bird of prey have a higher attack then the Defiant REALLY bothers me. I would be ok with them both having 4 attack dice but a lower number is ridiculous.


I don't think you're alone. The stats for these ships don't really seem to reflect any kind of respect for the Star Trek source material.

One tiny bird of prey scout vessel hits as hard as the Enterprise-D and harder than the Defiant or any D'derix class megaship? Ok...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Smith
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
RogueThirteen wrote:

I don't think you're alone. The stats for these ships don't really seem to reflect any kind of respect for the Star Trek source material.

One tiny bird of prey scout vessel hits as hard as the Enterprise-D and harder than the Defiant or any D'derix class megaship? Ok...


The D'derix, a ship 20 times the size of the bird of prey has less firepower but twice the agility? Weird.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RogueThirteen wrote:
agntorenge wrote:
I really hate to nitpik but having a bird of prey have a higher attack then the Defiant REALLY bothers me. I would be ok with them both having 4 attack dice but a lower number is ridiculous.


I don't think you're alone. The stats for these ships don't really seem to reflect any kind of respect for the Star Trek source material.

One tiny bird of prey scout vessel hits as hard as the Enterprise-D and harder than the Defiant or any D'derix class megaship? Ok...


Yyyyyeah, that just...that's kind of a 'jumped the shark' moment, there.

I mean, what the hell are they thinking giving a tiny 12-man scout ship the same firepower as the gigantic Valdore-class cruisers and outgunning the Galaxy-class and D'deridex-class ships?

I just...what...it's...

(A 'something-close-to-believable' implementation would have had the Bird of Prey show up as two ships, with the 12-man B'rel-class scout given a base attack of '1', and the ~40-or-so-crew K'Vort-class given a base attack of '3')
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Parks
United States
Somerset
New Jersey
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Marvel Strike Teams (2018)
badge
Marvel Strike Teams: November 2018
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Regarding the Bird-of-Prey and the Klingons in general, our decisions for attack power were based on the fact that Klingons tend to devote a larger portion of their ships and crew to warfare, and that is why the Klingon vessels are usually a step up in attack power beside comparable ships of other factions.

Sometimes, our considerations also have to do with the types of tactics employed by a particular faction (Klingons being more direct, aggressive, and less subtle, for example, than the Romulans). Therefore, ship size and armament were not the only factor in determining the Primary Weapon and Agility values for each ship.

Thanks,

Andrew
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
The Bird of Prey is one of the more notorious examples of the lack of any real internal consistency in Star Trek between the movies and ST:TNG.

It's not WizKids fault that Paramount sometimes showed these models as sometimes being small, sometimes huge, and never really explaining the discrepencies.

Here's a good article from Ex Astris Scientia on this.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm

A brief section from the article.
Quote:
According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia I there are two sizes of Birds-of-Prey: the smaller B'rel class ("Star Trek III", TNG: "Rascals") and the larger K'Vort class (TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"). The B'rel is depicted in a size comparison chart together with other Klingon ships, the length is 110m. The size of the K'Vort-class is not specified, nor are other appearances except for "Yesterday's Enterprise" mentioned.

The Star Trek Encyclopedia II depicts an alleged K'Vort-class BoP somewhere between 130m and 160m in the "Ships of the Galaxy" chart. See the Starship Size Table for further comments on the chart's reliability. The class name is an obvious mistake taking into account that it is postulated everywhere else in the book that the B'rel class should be the smaller type and the K'Vort class much bigger. The chart remains untouched in the updated Encyclopedia III.

The Star Trek Fact Files have various entries about the BoP, but they largely conceal the size paradox. The official two sizes (B'rel and K'Vort again) always share the same description, and the impression is created that all BoPs have moveable wings and are capable of atmospheric flight and landing. File 34/1 mainly portrays the small BoP, where "B'rel" and "D-12" are used synonymously. The length is said to be only 51.2m. The size comparison in the same file, on the other hand, shows a K'Vort type along with the Enterprise-D, resulting in a length of 320m for the Klingon ship, which would be consistent with TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Reunion" and "Redemption". The crew of the small ship is given as 12 (standard) to 24 (maximum). File 34/1C depicts a size comparison between a D7 battlecruiser and a nonspecific BoP, where the latter is 110m long. File 34/1D states that a "larger BoP" may have a crew complement of up to 35.

Finally, the DS9 Technical Manual tops all size figures with a length of 685m for the K'Vort-class BoP (consistent only with the exceptionally large ships in TNG: "The Defector", if we still believe in them), whereas for the B'rel a new figure of 158m is introduced. Most likely this medium-sized BoP was originally intended to be of the aforementioned VFX length of 137m, but was accidentally increased. The error probably occurred because the depiction of the Vor'cha in the Star Trek Encyclopedia II size chart is too small relative to the other ships, but Rick Sternbach took exactly this one to determine the other ship sizes in the DS9TM, which therefore appear too large. Further implications of this error are discussed along with the Starship Size Table. The DS9TM also provides a different armament for the K'Vort-class BoP (4 instead of 2 disruptors, 2 instead of 1 photon torpedo tube), which is not viable if the ship looks the same as the B'rel.




I think that WizKids is doing the right thing in just going for the numbers that give the best 'feel' for the ship, rather than trying to slavishly follow a 'scale consistency' that is non-existent in Trek.

I wouldn't really get all worked over this. Star Trek has never had the same level of 'technical' internal consistency of other Science Fiction franchises like Babylon 5 or Star Wars. A lot of this is due to Star Trek's longevity- with over 650 hours of total Trek footage, spread over a time period of decades, I'm not surprised that there are a fair amount of inconsistencies all over the place.

Personally, I'm more sympathetic with WizKids- given how strongly Trekkies' opinions run, no matter what stand they take on these types of issues they take, someone is going to get their knickers all twisted up.

Relax, have fun, get into the spirit of the game. None of this is real anyway, so questions of 'scale' are really and truly totally irrelevant. Not even the models made to shoot the episodes are 'in scale' with one another- they're each just big enough to do the camera work.

Darilian
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Darilian wrote:
I think that WizKids is doing the right thing in just going for the numbers that give the best 'feel' for the ship, rather than trying to slavishly follow a 'scale consistency' that is non-existent in Trek.


How does "12-man scout ship that easily outguns a 1,500-crew massive Romulan Warbird" provide the 'best feel for the ship'?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
XanderF wrote:
Darilian wrote:
I think that WizKids is doing the right thing in just going for the numbers that give the best 'feel' for the ship, rather than trying to slavishly follow a 'scale consistency' that is non-existent in Trek.


How does "12-man scout ship that easily outguns a 1,500-crew massive Romulan Warbird" provide the 'best feel for the ship'?

Nevermind outgunning the purpose-built-Borg-fighting-gunboat from the Federation in the USS Defiant??


Did you even read the article?

The fault isn't WizKids, its Paramount's.

But if this sort of thing is 'jumping the shark' for you, I'd recommend sticking to X-Wing. George Lucas was notorious about being very persnickety in 'signing off' on all merchandise for Star Wars. The result is that Star Wars is a lot more internally consistent. Then again, its a much smaller franchise than Trek.

Darilian
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Darilian wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Darilian wrote:
I think that WizKids is doing the right thing in just going for the numbers that give the best 'feel' for the ship, rather than trying to slavishly follow a 'scale consistency' that is non-existent in Trek.


How does "12-man scout ship that easily outguns a 1,500-crew massive Romulan Warbird" provide the 'best feel for the ship'?

Nevermind outgunning the purpose-built-Borg-fighting-gunboat from the Federation in the USS Defiant??


Did you even read the article?

The fault isn't WizKids, its Paramount's.


Given that Paramount established there were at least two different named classes of 'Bird of Prey'-looking ships (as in, actually-named-in-dialog-on-screen), and the first thing WizKids does is toss that idea in the bin, no - I really can't say the fault, here, is exclusively Paramount's.

Sure, I can see their position that Klingons should get better-than-usual-base-attack. Not sure I agree, but if they wanted to put out a K'Vort-class* ship with a base attack of '4'...okay, then, I suppose. Seems high, but whatever.

But the B'rel-class? The scout ship?? Nonononono...

* BTW, that ex astris article makes a few mistakes - at least one is in reference to the K'Vort class, which is actually identified by dialog several times in the series...not just that one episode.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
XanderF wrote:


* BTW, that ex astris article makes a few mistakes - at least one is in reference to the K'Vort class, which is actually identified by dialog several times in the series...not just that one episode.


Yes, because everyone knows that in reality....

You're missing the more general point. Star Trek is full of these little inconsistencies. So what is WizKids supposed to do? It's not their fault that Star Trek isn't internally consistent on scale issues- certainly not the extent that Lucas and the Star Wars franchise was/is.

Rather than being so quick to carp on WizKids for 'making a mistake', when there isn't any consensus on these issues, one might have a little sympathy for their position.

And if this really is a deal breaker for you, go play X-Wing. Or complain to Paramount. I don't understand the need by some to slag a game just because there are one or two things you disagree with. If you don't like a game, don't buy it. Do you really think that WizKids is in a position to change their model sizes, just to appease a vocal minority? And didn't they already do that once before, with the USS Constitution, back in the previous game, when people said it was a 'deal breaker' to have the original Enterprise as big as the Galaxy class Enterprise?

Relax. Have fun. Don't let the small stupid stuff get to you. I've never understood the anal-retentiveness of some fans on these issues, given that none of this is real. 'Scale' is a meaningless concept when applied to fictional vessels from a story. It's like harping on the type of gemstone used to make Narya, saying that its unlikely that it would be a ruby because the lack of Vulcanism in Middle Earth.


Darilian
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Ptak
United States
Livermore
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let's stay focused on the issue here: revealed stats for a B'rel cruiser being equal to ships many more times their size, energy output, and attack capability.

I understand what Andrew's saying but I still disagree with it. I think the B'Rel should have been similar in capabilities to the Romulan Scout ship but with obviously greater attack (at 3) and better shielding. You can't really expect more out of such a tiny vessel without crew and upgrades. B'Rel ships, at least within the movies and most of TNG, were used as swarm-attackers or on clever covert missions when they ran solo. I wouldn't expect them to stand toe-to-toe with much larger vessels without some kind of underhanded advantage. If the base B'rel has superior stats to a base K'Tinga, then I think something is wrong.

Instead of organic stats to pump up the Klingon's attack power I'd rather give them that advantage through some of their crew cards and captains. Bare-bones B'rels are not going to be fantastic individually and generically, but sticking a named captain and crew could pump the ship up to that 4 attack stat that it has now.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lester Gash
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mb
I think that what Andrew was saying is that the ship itself is only half the story regarding its stats. Yes, the BoP should have more defense and a lower attack, if we're going purely by the hard numbers of the ship itself. But a Klingon is going to fly more recklessly and go for a much more brutal salvo, knowing the ways of war better than anyone. Hence the high attack and low evasion.

Same story for the Romulans - 3 is a low attack stat for such a large ship but 2 is a surprisingly high evade. They're being evasive, forgoing a clean attack run or an obvious shot because they'd rather not be hit.

This game doesn't have a high range of numbers to work with. As it stands, 1 is the lowest and 6 is the highest. They've got to somehow balance ships for the 22nd century through to 24th on that scale.

I like the approach the designers have taken, allowing the personalities of the factions to influence the stats, rather than just the pure ship specifications. I can understand why that would be a turn-off for some wanting a more strict simulation of the show.

When you've got a franchise as big as Star Trek you can't please all the different kinds of fans. Every fan sees the canon in their own perspective, interprets it in a slightly different way. Faced with an impossible task to my mind they've gone for a flavorful, albeit not 100% faithful, approach. That seems fine to me in the context of a game being about fun primarily.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Smith
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Andrew Parks wrote:
Regarding the Bird-of-Prey and the Klingons in general, our decisions for attack power were based on the fact that Klingons tend to devote a larger portion of their ships and crew to warfare, and that is why the Klingon vessels are usually a step up in attack power beside comparable ships of other factions.

Sometimes, our considerations also have to do with the types of tactics employed by a particular faction (Klingons being more direct, aggressive, and less subtle, for example, than the Romulans). Therefore, ship size and armament were not the only factor in determining the Primary Weapon and Agility values for each ship.

Thanks,

Andrew


Thank you incredibly much, Andrew, for responding. It's wonderful when a game designer gets into the conversation with his customers.

I respect the decision to lean towards thinking gamewise rather than "reality"-wise for the stats, but this, I believe, breaks the suspension of disbelief a bit too much.

Remember that most players are Star Trek fans who are not picking up Attack Wing just because of its great game mechanics but because it is Star Trek and we want to recreate our fantasy battles with Federation starships and Klingon Birds of Prey and Romulan Warbirds and such.

We of course expect lots of sacrifices in translating ships into game pieces but, when all is said and done, a tiny 12-man scout ship should not outgun a massive battleship like a Romulan Warbird and that massive Warbird should not be twice as maneuverable as a tiny scout ship.

X-Wing Miniatures, from which you get the FlightPath system from, also takes great pains in making game pieces very much reflect the ships they are portraying - TIE Fighters are agile but fragile and B-Wings have incredible firepower and shields but low maneuverability.

Andrew, your player-base wants a game that to some degree has the feel of Star Trek and not just the look. The B'rel stats break that. They should have been 3 attack, 2 agility, 3 hull, and 2 shields.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Val Cassotta
msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Stormtrooper721 wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:

I don't think you're alone. The stats for these ships don't really seem to reflect any kind of respect for the Star Trek source material.

One tiny bird of prey scout vessel hits as hard as the Enterprise-D and harder than the Defiant or any D'derix class megaship? Ok...


The D'derix, a ship 20 times the size of the bird of prey has less firepower but twice the agility? Weird.


Looking at the STAW models, I think the BOP might actually be a bit bigger and therefore merit the increased attack dice.

I kid, I kid

It does seem a little off in its ability when comparing it to the other vessels mentioned in the thread, and I think something more like:

3 Attack
1 Agility
3 Hull
2 Shields
Generic Ability: Gains +1 Agility when not cloaked.

Would have been a bit more thematically appropriate for the smaller B'Rel.

I'll just choose to pretend this is the larger K'vort class
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.