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Subject: 20 GeekGold for the first photoshopper to render a card for me rss

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Michael Redston
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Name: ♦dr460n
Faction: Anarchs
Cost: 5 credits
Type: Hardware
Subtype: Console
Textbox: +1MU
Whenever a piece of installed ice is trashed not by dr460n, you may suffer 1 meat damage. If you do, place 1 power counter on dr460n.
Hosted power counter: Trash a piece of ice with 0 or less strength currently being encountered.
Limit 1 console per player.
Flavor text: Fire never dies alone.
Strength: -
Influence: ○○○○●
Artwork: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Tzaeon-The-Rider-of-Ruin-12986...
Artist: Xyrga

If you're about to embark on this, please reply that you do, so that multiple people won't work on it simultaneously.

Important: It has to be indistinguishable from a real card.

P.S. If you're wondering why the low influence, it's because in order to make it work OOF you'd need the support of other cards, all costing influence themselves. This is why Deep Red, Mimic and Yog are 1 influence.
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Trevor Schadt
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kroen wrote:
Important: It has to be indistinguishable from a real card.

P.S. If you're wondering why the low influence, it's because in order to make it work OOF you'd need the support of other cards, all costing influence themselves. This is why Deep Red, Mimic and Yog are 1 influence.
I'm more wondering why it's so important that it be indistinguishable from a real card...
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ryudoowaru wrote:
kroen wrote:
Important: It has to be indistinguishable from a real card.

P.S. If you're wondering why the low influence, it's because in order to make it work OOF you'd need the support of other cards, all costing influence themselves. This is why Deep Red, Mimic and Yog are 1 influence.
I'm more wondering why it's so important that it be indistinguishable from a real card...

Because as long as he's commissioning a piece of art, it might as well look nice and not be mocked up in 5 minutes with MS Paint?

(And I use "commissioning" lightly since 20 GG has a street value of what, $0.70?)
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Jack Keys
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This card is both a program and hardware?
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Michael Redston
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skiesbleed wrote:
This card is both a program and hardware?

Oops. Edited.
 
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Scott Hartman
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shouldn't the cost of this card's ability also include a click or include the wording for ice currently being encountered, or some other clarifying statement? At the moment it exists as a paid ability that could be used on any ice of 0 strength at any point. Which is all the benefit of a Parasite without the MU cost and the click to play it.

The cost to play this seems a bit high but reasonable. The cost of 1 meat damage is inconsequential when its the runner choosing when to use that ability. Also it would seem that if the runner is putting himself in this dangerous position that the damage could not be prevented. Combining this with a Muresh bodysuit is having the ability to trash a 0 str ice for free every turn.

just wondering why you thought of this card. its a homemade card so you can justify it however you want. i'm just curious.
 
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Michael Redston
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shartma wrote:
should the cost of this card's ability also include a click or include the wording for ice currently being encountered, or some other clarifying statement. At the moment it exists as a paid ability that could be used on any ice of 0 strength at any point. Which is all the benefit of a Parasite without the MU cost and the click to play it.

No click and no "currently being encountered" changes. And you can't really compare it to Parasite as Parasite actually physically lowers the strength of the ice and of course, is much cheaper. This is expensive and needs support.
shartma wrote:
The cost to play this seems a bit high but reasonable. The cost of 1 meat damage is inconsequential when its the runner choosing when to use that ability. Also it would seem that if the runner is putting himself in this dangerous position that the damage could not be prevented. Combining this with a Muresh bodysuit is having the ability to trash a 0 str ice for free every turn.

just wondering why you thought of this card. its a homemade card so you can justify it however you want. i'm just curious.

Muresh (and any other meat damage preventing effects) would actually render this useless. If the meat damage is prevented, then the ability doesn't activate, just like when "trash" is part of a cost and you prevent the trash the ability doesn't activate.
 
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Scott Hartman
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kroen wrote:

No click and no "currently being encountered" changes. And you can't really compare it to Parasite as Parasite actually physically lowers the strength of the ice and of course, is much cheaper. This is expensive and needs support.


thats not really true. you can compare them because they have very similar effects. The cost of parasite is relatively cheap but the real cost for the runner is that it takes time to be effective.

this console doesn't take time, it just takes money. (with datasuckers and/or wyrm) you can bring down the strength of any piece of ice to zero and then have an inconsequential cost of 1 meat damage. I say the 1 meat damage is inconsequential because the runner is deciding when to receive that damage.

kroen wrote:

Muresh (and any other meat damage preventing effects) would actually render this useless. If the meat damage is prevented, then the ability doesn't activate, just like when "trash" is part of a cost and you prevent the trash the ability doesn't activate.


fair enough, though i still think that cost is far too cheap for the benefit. ie, parasite is a one use program, forge activation is a one use event, even not destructive de-rezzing like cresentus or emergency shutdown are one use abilities. This being an ability that you can use over and over again (even though it requires additional cards to help) should make the ability more costly (ie, a credit amount, a click, once a turn limit, etc) Meat damage when you know its coming is not an effective cost.
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Michael Redston
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It it required a click then it would be insanely underpowered, as Datasucker and Ice Carver won't work with it.
 
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Matthew McFarland
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I'll try a mock up, if mostly just for fun.
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Richard Linnell
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It would require playtest, but my initial impression is that it is too strong. An instant 2 card combo with datasucker that lets you take out several ICE per run at instant speed, with only a small drawback. Perhaps the high initial cost justifies it, but costing each use at 1 meat damage is 'essentially' just making it cost a click. Actually less than a click since the average deck gets more than 1 card/click now.

Compare this to the closest cards: Parasite and Blackguard. Compared to Parasite, this is essentially infinitely reusable for the same purpose. Having this console would pretty much obsolete Parasite from play as it is strictly better if you are going to use Datasuckers and 3x parasites per game.

Compared to Blackguard, this is cheaper with an effect that falls in the same category - resource denial. Which would you rather have, the ability to use a 2 card combo that causes the corp to lose credits on ICE (which continues to help them after it is rezzed) or the ability to use a 2 card combo and permanently destroy ICE that they already paid for? Pretty clear that most would choose your new card.

Want to make it interesting? Lower the initial cost, make the ability free and then add "Whenever a piece of rezzed ICE is trashed, suffer 1 meat damage." Now you have a more serious drawback, in that the corp can reach out and slap you whenever they want, and you are forced to play around the new restriction.

But at least your version brings high strength ICE back in vogue....
 
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Guido Gloor
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kroen wrote:
It it required a click then it would be insanely underpowered, as Datasucker and Ice Carver won't work with it.

Not Wyrm, either.

The problem is that as proposed, it's insanely overpowered when combined with Wyrm. Trashing any ice would be cheaper than breaking it with with the two together.
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Scott Hartman
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kroen wrote:
It it required a click then it would be insanely underpowered, as Datasucker and Ice Carver won't work with it.


thats fine, I wasn't saying it must cost a click. In that case you should have phrased to only work on ice being encountered which prevents just discarding a card to kill a rototurret or chimera at will because you would be forced to at least make a run to use the ability.

my point is only that re-usable effects should cost significantly more than one-off effects. your current valuation of this ability is low in my view.

if i were making this card (and i kind of like it) i would change text to the following:

2 Meat Damage: Trash ice being encountered with strength of 0.

that wording prevents just using it on any ice, limits how often you could use the ability in a single turn and is still usable with all of the cards this console would interact well with (datasucker, wyrm, ice carver, etc)
 
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Captain Frisk
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Mod Request: can this be moved to variants forum please with other card ideas?
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James 3
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recurring ice destruction like this is likely way too strong. data sucker and parasite are both too cheap in retrospect for how impactful they are, and this card just helps push that already powerful strategy.
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Michael Redston
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I don't see the comparison to Blackguard. Exposing effects are much easier to play than strengh reduction events. Also this card requires much more setup than Blackguard. And Wyrm can only lower the strengh of a piece of ICE with equal or lower strength, so against big pieces of ICE it's really really expensive. And it doesn't help dr460n that it's in the faction with the worst economy (true, "worst" is relative these days with Daily Casts and Kati Jones, but still).
 
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Michael Redston
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Nerfed it:

Whenever a piece of ice is trashed, you may suffer 1 meat damage. If you do, place 1 power counter on dr460n.
Hosted power counter: Trash a piece of ice with 0 or less strength currently being encountered.

Also reduced the cost to 5 credits. I think that's fair.

Now it requires even more setup, or have the corp trash ICE on its own. And not only it doesn't make Parasite obsolete, it requires it.
 
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Scott Hartman
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i actually like that quite a bit more. It also works well with the new caissa programs, which the corp will be trashing ice to get rid of. thats much more interesting effect and forces the corp to think twice
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Jack Keys
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kroen wrote:
Nerfed it:

Whenever a piece of ice is trashed, you may suffer 1 meat damage. If you do, place 1 power counter on dr460n.
Hosted power counter: Trash a piece of ice with 0 or less strength currently being encountered.

Also reduced the cost to 5 credits. I think that's fair.

Now it requires even more setup, or have the corp trash ICE on its own. And not only it doesn't make Parasite obsolete, it requires it.


Wouldn't this allow dr460n to keep trigger itself once a single piece of ICE was trashed? I think you would need some kind of clause that prevented this, otherwise it would always have a counter after the first piece of ICE was trashed.
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Shane Baumgartner
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Don't forget the text about only having one console out at a time... unless this card is explicitly supposed to flaunt that rule.
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Michael Redston
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Forgot about that. Here's the final version:

Whenever a piece of ice is trashed not by dr460n, you may suffer 1 meat damage. If you do, place 1 power counter on dr460n.
Hosted power counter: Trash a piece of ice with 0 or less strength currently being encountered.
Limit 1 console per player.
 
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Richard Linnell
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kroen wrote:
I don't see the comparison to Blackguard. Exposing effects are much easier to play than strengh reduction events. Also this card requires much more setup than Blackguard. And Wyrm can only lower the strengh of a piece of ICE with equal or lower strength, so against big pieces of ICE it's really really expensive. And it doesn't help dr460n that it's in the faction with the worst economy (true, "worst" is relative these days with Daily Casts and Kati Jones, but still).


The comparison is in that both are resource denial effects - they fall in line with account siphon, parasite, vamp, etc. Sure they all do mechanically different things, but they all have the same effect - attacking the corps resources in order to make the rest of your running easier.

Not sure how expose effects are easier than strength reduction - maybe because they are primarily events? Yes that makes them easier to play initially, but it also means they go away. Right now there are two recurring expose effects: Lemuria codecracker - which requires click, credit, and a successful run on HQ, and snitch, which is once per run. So I don't think it's unreasonable to compare Blackguard+Lemuria or Blackguard+Snitch to Dragon+Wyrm.

Blackguard+Lemuria - AFTER making a successful run on HQ, you may take actions to expose cards, which in turn forces the corp to spend one type of resource (credits) on another type of resource (ICE or asset). The corp is still left with a resource (the ICE or asset) but it is a potentially wasted resource (because it is not the ICE or asset which the corp wanted to rez that turn). This can be powerful, especially since the runner can do this 3x after a successful run. However, it can also be played around, by simply being more selective about which ICE and assets you place down as the corp. Nothing about this combo "kills" an entire decks construction.

Blackguard+Snitch - More limited, in that it is once per run. Great for making a "feint" at one server and forcing rez, but this is something that runners could do with a facecheck anyways - now it's a little bit "safer" to accomplish. And again, you don't get destruction of the corp's resources, you get forced resource conversion.

Wyrm+Dragon: pay 2x ICE strength ONCE to kill ICE permanently. This completely obliterates Strength 0 and 1 ICE that normally works as a speed bump for runners - if a corp pays 4 credits for a Rototurret, they expect it to cost the runner 2 credits to get through each turn. If instead, you can simply run into it and it's gone, suddenly Rototurret is a dead card, and will be removed from play. Same idea for things that are 1 or 2 strength - instead of a runner paying 1-4 credits per run to break through, they pay 2 or 4 credits ONCE and then the ICE is permanently gone. This only becomes ineffective for extremely high strength ICE, and even then it is hard to find an example that would be cheaper to run through for an entire game than to destroy once. In any event, what you are doing here is taking away the corps resources, oftentimes at a very small cost to yourself.

Your new version, with the power counters, is slightly better, but it still does not necessitate parasite. It does necessitate that either - the corporation trashes a piece of ICE on their own, or that ICE is somehow otherwise trashed, which can be done with Imp, Demo Run, Kraken, Noise ability? etc., as well as parasite. I agree that it now requires more setup, although that is arguable since it now costs less.

I think it's clear that I just don't find ICE destruction to be a "good" thing for the game - but that said, if you really had your heart set on a slash and burn ICE destruction card that really fit with Anarch, perhaps try something like:

Name: ♦Fires of Hell
Faction: Anarchs
Cost: 5 credits
Type: Hardware
Subtype: Console
Textbox: +1MU
Whenever a piece of ice is trashed, place one power counter on Fires of Hell.
Hosted power counter, X: Trash a piece of ICE that you just completed an encounter with, where X is the strength of the ICE. Play this ability only if you did not break any subroutines on that piece of ICE.
Flavor text: BURN WITH ME!!
Strength: -
Influence: ○○○○●

Can still be used to hurt the corp, specifically this will crush low strength ETR ICE, but in turn makes non-ETR "punishing" ICE great for the corp to play. Again, I'd have to give this more than 5 mins. of thought, but something along these lines, where the ICE being destoyed gets to hit you with each of its subroutines is a serious drawback, and fits in well with the Anarch theme.



 
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Ben Finkel
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kroen wrote:
Forgot about that. Here's the final version:

Whenever a piece of ice is trashed not by dr460n, you may suffer 1 meat damage. If you do, place 1 power counter on dr460n.
Hosted power counter: Trash a piece of ice with 0 or less strength currently being encountered.
Limit 1 console per player.


I'd certainly include the phrase "trashed from play" in there, unless you specifically want Imp/Demolition Run/installation/Noise to give this card counters. In Noise's case, that leads to very icky information issues.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Azeltir wrote:
I'd certainly include the phrase "trashed from play" in there, unless you specifically want Imp/Demolition Run/installation/Noise to give this card counters. In Noise's case, that leads to very icky information issues.
Alternately, change it to "a piece of installed ice".
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Mychal
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I hope you asked the artist for permission to appropriate their work for your card. It probably falls under fair use since it's just for you, but it's still polite to ask.
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