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Subject: Smoke Question (Noob) rss

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Dave P
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Am I to understand:

1. Smoke can only be created by engineers.
2. Smoke can only be created by engineers IF the appropriate operations card is in play?
3. Smoke can only be created by engineers IN THE HEX THEY ARE CURRENTLY IN?

Doesn't this mean (#3 above) that an engineer is exposing themselves to Op Fire if they move into a street (for example) to pop smoke in order to let an allied unit move through the hex?

This seems weird. Why not let any unit pop smoke whenever they'd like (by spending movement points or an action)? Why not let a unit pop smoke in an adjacent hex?

Seems dumb that I'd run out, exposing myself to enemy fire, to pop smoke.

Perhaps I've missed something really obvious.

Thanks-
Dave

P.S. I *have* read the FAQ and searched the forums, so I may have simply overlooked the answer(s).
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bill jaffe
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no you have not missed anything.
we will address this eventually but for now it's going to be this way
yes i know it's not the best or most realistic solution but i can only change so much

Bill Jaffe
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Ray
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For years I have been pushing for mortars and smoke.

Mortars Firing Smoke (to be added to the “Mortar Crew” on page 38-39)
To fire smoke, the mortar crew(s) on a squad base need to perform a suppressive attack and must declare that the mortars are firing smoke rounds. The attacking player targets a hex and rolls dice normally; 5 and 6 hit at normal range, while 6 hits at long range. Smoke rounds have no effect against units in the hex being attacked, but if at least two hits are scored, place a smoke token in the targeted hex. If no hits are scored, the attack was ineffective and no smoke marker is placed. If only one hit is scored, roll a red and a black die to determine drift. The black die tells how many hexes the target hex drifts (1,2 = 1 hex; 3,4 = 2 hexes; 5,6 = 3 hexes) and the red die (together with the north directional marker) tells the direction in which it drifts. All other rules regarding mortars (Limited Choice of Actions, Ballistic Fire, Minimum Distance, No Opportunity Fire, No Mixed Fire) are still enforced.

Also, the rules are very misleading in regards to how long smoke lasts. Please read the thread below for a full explanation:
www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13281321

Of course I updated the RCD (Rules Clarification Document) file to reflect this startling new clarification because at the time the RCD was wrong since it refers to what is written in the rules and not what was intended!

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Willem Boersma
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OK. let me just play the devil's advocate here. I copy-pasted the text below from the link that Ray provided.

"As it is, if you lay smoke towards the end of your Action Phase, its pretty much useless since its only going to get removed during the status phase. So, if you are going to lay smoke at all, it should be done at the very beginning of your action turn because if you lay smoke at the very end, say your last action - its completely useless as it will be removed during the Status Phase of the same Game Round... which had always seemed very odd to me."

Perhaps one shouldn't wait until the end of an actio phase to lay smoke??? Pretty similar to not waiting to spot for a mortar or artillery card until all units have received an activation token. :whistle:
 
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Willem Boersma
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skinsfan wrote:
no you have not missed anything.
we will address this eventually but for now it's going to be this way
yes i know it's not the best or most realistic solution but i can only change so much

Bill Jaffe
1A Games


Yes, advanced rules would be nice eventually. They could cover things such as different rules for smoke (as hinted at in the original post) including the mortars firing smoke. I'd definitely welcome such rules.
 
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Ray
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boersma8 wrote:
OK. let me just play the devil's advocate here. I copy-pasted the text below from the link that Ray provided.

"As it is, if you lay smoke towards the end of your Action Phase, its pretty much useless since its only going to get removed during the status phase. So, if you are going to lay smoke at all, it should be done at the very beginning of your action turn because if you lay smoke at the very end, say your last action - its completely useless as it will be removed during the Status Phase of the same Game Round... which had always seemed very odd to me."

Perhaps one shouldn't wait until the end of an actio phase to lay smoke??? Pretty similar to not waiting to spot for a mortar or artillery card until all units have received an activation token. whistle


Willem, by only including part of the text you are deleting out the most important information. That is, smoke is not removed until the next round. The rest of it reads as follows:

His response was, "Hmm... I've always played that if you lay smoke in round 3 it gets removed in round 4. I don't know if that's what they meant; I just presumed from the word 'next' it would last one full round." Which of course started a series of replies, but to make a long story short, we decided to see what the designer had intended it to be. Bill emaild FFG and here was the response he got:

"As per the core game designer, smoke is meant to last for at least one full turn. If this poses a memory issue, when smoke is placed, place two markers instead of one and remove one smoke per stack per Status Phase."

I’m told that Rob or someone at FFG will update the official FAQ to include this significant information as to how long smoke is supposed to last in Tide of Iron, but to be honest, I’m not sure how long that will take. However, I will certainly be updating the RCD file to reflect this startling new clarification because currently the RCD is wrong since it refers to what is written in the rules and not what was intended!
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Willem Boersma
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RayGuns wrote:
boersma8 wrote:
OK. let me just play the devil's advocate here. I copy-pasted the text below from the link that Ray provided.

"As it is, if you lay smoke towards the end of your Action Phase, its pretty much useless since its only going to get removed during the status phase. So, if you are going to lay smoke at all, it should be done at the very beginning of your action turn because if you lay smoke at the very end, say your last action - its completely useless as it will be removed during the Status Phase of the same Game Round... which had always seemed very odd to me."

Perhaps one shouldn't wait until the end of an actio phase to lay smoke??? Pretty similar to not waiting to spot for a mortar or artillery card until all units have received an activation token. :whistle:


Willem, by only including part of the text you are deleting out the most important information. That is, smoke is not removed until the next round. The rest of it reads as follows:

His response was, "Hmm... I've always played that if you lay smoke in round 3 it gets removed in round 4. I don't know if that's what they meant; I just presumed from the word 'next' it would last one full round." Which of course started a series of replies, but to make a long story short, we decided to see what the designer had intended it to be. Bill emaild FFG and here was the response he got:

"As per the core game designer, smoke is meant to last for at least one full turn. If this poses a memory issue, when smoke is placed, place two markers instead of one and remove one smoke per stack per Status Phase."

I’m told that Rob or someone at FFG will update the official FAQ to include this significant information as to how long smoke is supposed to last in Tide of Iron, but to be honest, I’m not sure how long that will take. However, I will certainly be updating the RCD file to reflect this startling new clarification because currently the RCD is wrong since it refers to what is written in the rules and not what was intended!


Yes Ray. I know. I read that too. It's just that according to the mortars and spotting example I gave, it actually would have made sense too if it only lasted for a single game round.

What might be a nice future addition to the game is double sided smoke markers (like in memoir '44): on the first round smoke is dropped it's at level 2 and on the second round it's a "1" (I believe in memoir a "2"means that LOS is blocked and a "1" that LOS is reduced and, in TOI terminology, units get +1 cover (obviously fog doesn't provide any actual protection but when you're harder to see it's of course more difficult to take one's aim). Anyway, sth like that might be a very nice addition to TOI and would make it very logical that smoke stays an extra round (flipped over between rounds and afterwards removed).
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