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Subject: Civilization PBF Game #90 - WaW rss

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J. H. Horatio
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I'd like to start up a new game. We will use the full FaF and WaW expansion.

However in my ongoing crusade to fix what I feel is a broken combat system, we will try something new.

Following rule changes:

Battles between army figures will be decided like so:

Highest total combat score as counted from:
a) the remaining health of the units on the field
b) max of +4 for a Great General (if you have two generals then you still just get +4)
c) government bonus (such as Fundamentalism)
d) civ bonus (such as France)
e) Great Person bonus (such as Leonidas or Joan of Arc)
f) wonder effects (such as Statue of Zeus)


And that's it.

Attacking a city is slightly different.

First, you decide if you won the battle per the following:
a) the remaining health of the units on the field
b) max of +4 for a Great General (if you have two generals then you still just get +4)
c) government bonus (such as Fundamentalism)
d) civ bonus (such as France)
e) Great Person bonus (such as Leonidas or Joan of Arc)
f) wonder effects (such as Statue of Zeus)
g) +4 city walls
h) +2/+4 for shipyard/barracks/academy in the defending city only


If the attacker loses the battle, then armies are removed per usual. If the attacker wins the battle, we need to see if he then has enough strength to occupy and raze the city.

Starting from the combat score calculated above, you add:
i) city bonus
j) +1 for each building and wonder (including barracks!) in the outskirts of the defending city
k) MIC from attacker and defender
l) shipyard/barracks/academy total from attacker


If after all that, the attacker has the higher score then the city is razed and the attacker is awarded 2 Loot as before. If the attacker isn't strong enough to take the city, then the winning army takes 1 Loot and remains in the outskirts in siege of the city. No coin is awarded on Code of Laws for such a victory however. For stacks that have to remain in the outskirts, the stack loses one figure immediately after the battle is over down to a minimum of 2. Of course, if the stack lost any figures in the battle this doesn't apply. Replaceable Parts prevents this effect.

If a city builds an army in its outskirts on a square with an enemy figure such that it immediately commences combat, then it gets the city defender benefits!!!

Obviously, with this system it makes it fairly difficult to win a battle with no units and a single figure stands little chance against a larger stack and nearly no chance at all against a city defended with 4-6 units.


Two other rule changes:

When you build a temple/cathedral, as a one time bonus you immediately receive the culture printed on the building (which you can use to walk on culture if you are able)

Relics are defended by lvl 2 barbs with walls

Actually, no need to give them walls, new system makes them tough enough


One more thing - I still need screen shots of the new tiles, civ tokens, the new city states, etc. from WaW. If someone can PM me these (unfortunately I do not know how to produce these!) then we can get going.

Let me know who wants to play - as this is an experimental game, we'll go with first come, first serve.
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Notsteve Notlawton
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I'd be willing to try it out, if it's not a problem that I'm currently in a different game!
If I'm accepted:
Color- any
Civ- USA as first choice, Greece a back up, France as option 3.
 
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Thanee
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Hey!

Two small comments.

jhoratio wrote:
b) max of +4 for a Great General (if you have two generals then you still just get +4)


Why not just redraw any GP, which come out as a second Great General. Otherwise, a second one is pretty useless.

Quote:
And that's it.


Don't forget the Statue of Zeus.

Bye
Thanee
 
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J. H. Horatio
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Thanee wrote:
Why not just redraw any GP, which come out as a second Great General. Otherwise, a second one is pretty useless.


Completely disagree. The abilities on the General cards are awesome all by themselves. I don't think you'd want to throw away Sun Tzu.

Thanee wrote:
Don't forget the Statue of Zeus.


Good call. The +4 for that wonder should be for the battle itself, much like a Great General. It's easy enough to obsolete, so it's pretty powerful in the short term but the effect wouldn't persist into the modern era (or at least it shouldn't!).

Actually a wonder in the city outskirts should be worth something for a defending city. Do you think just +1 like any other building? That's what I'm thinking.
 
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Notsteve Notlawton
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Statue of zeus is actually +6, it's pretty nuch a barracks in every city.
 
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Alexandru Alex
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It is my first ever PBF game and I am very excited to play it with your military rules and all the expansions.

I will chose the color yellow
I will chose the Greeks for my first option, or the Spanish as my second one.
 
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Thanee
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jhoratio wrote:
Completely disagree. The abilities on the General cards are awesome all by themselves. I don't think you'd want to throw away Sun Tzu.


You could make it optional (allow to redraw).

It still feels like getting only half a GP that way (if that much, the +4 bonus is huge).

Bye
Thanee
 
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J. H. Horatio
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Thanee wrote:
jhoratio wrote:
Completely disagree. The abilities on the General cards are awesome all by themselves. I don't think you'd want to throw away Sun Tzu.


You could make it optional (allow to redraw).

It still feels like getting only half a GP that way (if that much, the +4 bonus is huge).

Bye
Thanee


I still disagree - oftentimes it feels like GP draws are separated into a) I got a General! and b) I didn't get a general

Louis Pasteur seems like half a GP most of the time.

Hopefully this balances some of that.

Plus thematically it works - you can only have one leader!
 
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Thanee
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I see. So this part is intentional.

Bye
Thanee
 
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jhoratio wrote:
Thanee wrote:
Why not just redraw any GP, which come out as a second Great General. Otherwise, a second one is pretty useless.


Completely disagree. The abilities on the General cards are awesome all by themselves. I don't think you'd want to throw away Sun Tzu.




if your first general draw was a constant passive bonus (such as the one that for every unit killed in combat, add 1 wound token to any unit of your choice), and then your second one is something like Leonidas or sun Tzu, you can't use them b/c you only have 1 marker on the board.

how are you going to circumvent that?
 
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J. H. Horatio
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Gadolphos wrote:
jhoratio wrote:
Thanee wrote:
Why not just redraw any GP, which come out as a second Great General. Otherwise, a second one is pretty useless.


Completely disagree. The abilities on the General cards are awesome all by themselves. I don't think you'd want to throw away Sun Tzu.




if your first general draw was a constant passive bonus (such as the one that for every unit killed in combat, add 1 wound token to any unit of your choice), and then your second one is something like Leonidas or sun Tzu, you can't use them b/c you only have 1 marker on the board.

how are you going to circumvent that?


You don't seem to understand the basic rules of Great People. As long as at least one GP of the appropriate type is on the board, you can you use multiple GP cards that correspond to that type. So with only one Great Artist on the board and one in your hand, you are able to use both your Jerry Garcia card and reveal Valmiki both at the same time.
 
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J. H. Horatio
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RoyalRook wrote:
Ok ok ok, why don't you just make Great Generals +2 CB instead of +4, and keep the game simple? If they draw two in a row it's still only +4 instead of +8, and if they are able to draw 3(+6 CB), so what, they lost out on other amazing GP bonuses. Btw, I think all future Pbf should rule that Great Generals only give you +2 combat bonuses.


Keeping the bonus to +4 is already simple. I think we can remember to just count one general bonus when calculating combat.

 
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Notsteve Notlawton
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Though I don't necessarily agree that the modifications are optimal, it's his game. He is taking out time to do this. He's allowed to play by his own rules just as much as we are allowed if we mod. If there was an oversight (statue of zeus) then point it out. Of not I say play or don't
 
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Alexandru Alex
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agree with Deredbaron ... is his game, and his rules, For me is ok to play with his rules
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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hmm i would be interested to try out this new battle system, since i am thinking to adapt it partially or full for DoC. But if someone else want to play first, no problem. =)

nice to see more moderations pop up, i will probably start another soon also.

I have updated Exel files and Powerpointsheets for moderating if you need, but the new tiles and relics aren't in yet.

send me your mail, so i can send them to you if you need.
 
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Alexandru Alex
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I have waited a lot for this game to begin, but I see that it is not moving forward so because I will leave for about a week, I want to retreat my aplication for playing this game...
 
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J. H. Horatio
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AlZeus987 wrote:
I have waited a lot for this game to begin, but I see that it is not moving forward so because I will leave for about a week, I want to retreat my aplication for playing this game...


Patience, my friends. I'm still waiting on the new tile images. Can't start unless I have those. If you feel like you need to leave, then leave. I'm sure someone else will be glad to have your spot.
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J. H. Horatio
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RoyalRook wrote:
Do you own the game?


Yep
 
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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RoyalRook wrote:
Are you waiting for FF to approve you to upload the scan then?

maybe he doesnt have a high quality scanner Oô?
 
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J. H. Horatio
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jhoratio wrote:
One more thing - I still need screen shots of the new tiles, civ tokens, the new city states, etc. from WaW. If someone can PM me these (unfortunately I do not know how to produce these!) then we can get going.


Morthai is right, my scanner is crap and even if it wasn't, I do not know how to scan a tiny thing like a tile into something I can use in GIMP.

Simply read what I write and all will be answered!

Honestly, what's the rush?
 
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Nathanaël Dufour
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I really like this Battle system houserule. If I got this right, it means :

baracks/shipyards/academies only count in defending the city they're built in (and even then only in avoiding total destruction of said city)

MiC only count in fight including a city

Generals +4 are not cumulative


I like that. I have felt since the beginning of Civ that military victory was overpowered (not that it wins everytime, but if you get a good enough battle advantage then you can pull a military victory even if you have lagged behind the whole game, instead of having to "build it" by creating/upgrading armies and increasing your stacking limit).

I would looooove to play this game, alas I am leaving to South America in 10 days (for an 8 months trip...).
 
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J. H. Horatio
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In a nutshell, MIC and barracks do not count for deciding the outcome of a battle, just whether or not a city is taken.

You need to win on the field to win a battle.
 
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Christoph Wolf
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Hope you don't mind if I throw this in here: How about every general can only be used for one battle each turn and only one per battle?
 
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I had a thought about Generals that correspond to your idea of one battle per turn but it's even more restrictive.
The Idea is that your general move under an army of a stack of army and so give +4 for every battles this or these army(ies) are engaged in.
You put the general in your city outskirt and if one of your army goes on it, you can decide to stick them together. -> if you lose a battle (no more flag on it), the general marker goes back to the market.
If ever you have more than one generals and cards, you have to stick the card with the general you picked. And so Leonidas will only work for this stack of army, or for the city he's in the outskirt.
 
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J. H. Horatio
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I'm not sure why the generals thing continues to confuse everyone. The ONLY thing that would change is that you'd max out at a +4 combat bonus regardless if you had one, two or three great generals. You'd always be able to use the card abilities per the rules on the cards.
 
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