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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Daybreak Expansion» Forums » General

Subject: Too hard for humans? rss

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Evan Bryce
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So far, Cylons have won every one of our games post Daybreak. This is with various configurations(earth, no earth, mutineer/no, Cylon leader/no).

We are going to put more plays under our belt as-is but curious if others are finding it hard to win as humas now?

And if there are any suggested tips you have tested to slightly rebalance in favor of humans until we are playing humans more optimally.
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Kenny Renaud
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XOs are even more precious now that the deck is a bit more diluted than before.

Use captain's cabin to keep skill cards up. (greens, purples and blues)

Scout the hell out of destinations looking for big jumps.

Tactical plot the hell out of the missions for the distance





 
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Joseph Cochran
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Like every configuration of BSG it just takes time for a group to corporately learn the best strategies. I do think that Earth is the biggest change and challenge of the set, but all of the new bits change the dynamics of play so that you have to learn it again.

We've seen this every expansion. When BSG first came out seeing a Cylon Loyalty card was "yay, I am going to be sneaky and back-stabby and I'm going to win!" But later that became "Cylon. Crud. Now I'm going to lose." Then Pegasus came out and the Cylons started winning more for a while before people understood the expansion (though in our group this was the shallowest learning curve of an expansion). Then Exodus came out and the Nebula and it was all Cylon wins again for a while (though with the Nebula and the CFB we never got back to that "easy for humans" stage: it felt like it balanced better). Now Daybreak is seeing the same cycle.

It's hard to give specific tips without knowing the configuration of expansions and options that you're using, but if you just want to give the humans a better handicap raise the resource dials a notch each: that will give the humans more time.
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Joseph Cochran
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kenneth_paltrow wrote:
XOs are even more precious now that the deck is a bit more diluted than before.

Use captain's cabin to keep skill cards up. (greens, purples and blues)

Scout the hell out of destinations looking for big jumps.

Tactical plot the hell out of the missions for the distance


Yes, if playing to Earth, the Captain's Cabin and Tactical Plot are very powerful and need to be used, especially early: though the distance missions are the primary goal there are a couple of missions that are very powerful early (Attack on the Colony and Cylon Civil War chief among them IMO) if you can get them passed before the Cylons show up.
 
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Evan Bryce
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We have played a number of games w/o Earth with Daybreak and results are similarly bad for humans.

As I mentioned, I think humans will become more skilled over time but despite a similar learning curve with previous expansions this seems overly tough for humans.

Interesting if others aren't seeing the same. Perhaps our game group is just slower on this particular learning curve.
 
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Mindy G
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I've only seen one human win in f2f, which was Base and Daybreak only (no Peg/Ex) to Earth. The new treachery is definitely a major factor I think, as it can snowball so quickly, which snowballs the Mutiny and suddenly 2-3 people are in the Brig. So I think learning to manage those two things are key.
 
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The only wins I've seen so far are b/c Cylons are inexperienced, messed up, or didn't understand something (colorblindness in one case :\).

Some buffs for easier human games...
1) shuffle Treachery into destiny Deck (DD) only after its 1st run through

2) +1 resource variant here... just 1 when you need it, not all 4 resources at +1
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/773669/adding-a-resource...
 
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Brian
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It's really easy for things to spiral out of control. One wrong XO by me and now all three humans are in the brig. yuk
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Sean B
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Interesting. My group has had a pretty normal win %, about 60% cylon wins. I play with 4-5 people (not counting myself) of which two are hopelessly incompetent, one is experienced (as am I), and two are competent. After I spent two games tossing them mercilessly into the brig with mutiny and treachery they learned how to deal with it very quickly.

Seriously, it's not that hard to stay out of the brig if you just play your mutiny cards, use the Press Room if you can't, and make use of restore order every now and then.
 
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lankyb wrote:
It's really easy for things to spiral out of control. One wrong XO by me and now all three humans are in the brig. yuk


pretty impressive reveal here... PBF BSG game spoilers if you care.....
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13479715#13479715
 
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Karl
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What changed in daybreak that has this big of an effect? The new treachery cards? Maybe do shuffle the two treachery decks togehter then. Or at least portions of them.
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Droz wrote:
And if there are any suggested tips you have tested to slightly rebalance in favor of humans until we are playing humans more optimally.


Play 5p with Cylon+Cylon Leader+Mutineer. It has worked for us.

Although I lost the last time as a cylon, it was a close call. It was a CAC=non-CFB game with Pegasus and Exodus (and Daybreak) to Earth.
 
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JasX X
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Droz wrote:

And if there are any suggested tips you have tested to slightly rebalance in favor of humans until we are playing humans more optimally.


My group has played 3 games one human win (5 player), and two non-runaway cylon wins, one at distance 10 (6 player, mutineer) and one at distance 13 (this one is fully written up in the 'sessions' section as 'to distance 13 and beyond (accidentally)'.

Humans tended to do badly when they didn't make good use of demetrius early on (ie XO the captains cabin).

My group also plays using the original base game Investigative Comitties (ie reveals destiny) to help humans out on skill checks.
 
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Robert Stewart
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lankyb wrote:
It's really easy for things to spiral out of control. One wrong XO by me and now all three humans are in the brig. yuk


I'm more concerned about the Cylon Admiral with jump prep at blue -1...

Throwing people in the Brig isn't game-ending in and of itself - easiest game I ever played was a four-player base game where two players (one was the Cylon) spent almost the entire game in the Brig - with Roslin and Boomer (who drew the Sympathiser to get sent to the Brig twice at Sleeper) in play there was a lot of Crisis filtering, and, as Roslin, I quickly drew the entire Quorum deck...
 
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JasX X
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lankyb wrote:
It's really easy for things to spiral out of control. One wrong XO by me and now all three humans are in the brig. yuk


aye, I have enjoyed games pre-Daybreak when all 'actual' humans were either in the brig or in the process of resolving their execution

Of course I was a cylon



Or an even better game when I only got 3 out of 4 of them and the one I missed/could't quite get turned out to be my co-cylon turned at sleeper
 
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kilrah wrote:
What changed in daybreak that has this big of an effect? The new treachery cards? Maybe do shuffle the two treachery decks togehter then. Or at least portions of them.
Just Daybreak, you play with CACs since CFB is part of Exodus. There are 6 new CAC to better balance out the ratio of non-CACs to CAC. Except for one (see link), the others can be twice as bad if it hits you at the wrong timing.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1025322/huh-theres-actua...

Some of the new 0-str, non-brown skill cards have good cylon applications.

Treachery is more dangerous and prominent in effect (always triggers in some way, and 0, 3-5 strength).

Earth can be a very swingy game.
 
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Doug Buel
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Droz wrote:
So far, Cylons have won every one of our games post Daybreak. This is with various configurations(earth, no earth, mutineer/no, Cylon leader/no).

We are going to put more plays under our belt as-is but curious if others are finding it hard to win as humas now?

And if there are any suggested tips you have tested to slightly rebalance in favor of humans until we are playing humans more optimally.

We've started playing with each resource at +1 over normal at game start.

We're not sure yet whether this is satisfactory. We might go to each resource at +2.
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Sean Foster
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I've played about half a dozen times and so far the humans have only won once, and that victory was about as close as they come, the game could've ended in victory for the Cylons on any single one of the last 6 or so turns. We only won because every single human and our helpful Cylon Leader ally either used their Miracle abilities in very clever ways or handed their tokens over to me, Cult Baltar, who bumped up the fuel by 2 to reach Earth.

I don't think Earth destination works well with the other expansions. I think in the future we'll probably only use Daybreak specific goodies when heading to Earth and leave Pegasus, the Cylon Fleet Board and the extra skill cards out of the game and if not using Earth, we'll only use Mutiny and Daybreak Treachery and leave the Demetrius in the box.

A diluted skill card deck, burying XO cards seems to be the real killer. Using XOs aboard Demetrius is a game changer for scouting cards and giving everybody a couple of extra skill cards.
 
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Justin S.
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I've only played a couple times, unfortunately, but we have yet to see the cylons win with Daybreak. So no, I don't think it's too hard for humans.
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Mindy G
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Well that is interesting! What set up are you using?
 
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Justin S.
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We've been playing with all 4 expansions. W' CFB, destination Kobol and CACs destination Earth. 7 players, so Mutineer + CL.

No Conflicted loyalties, at least not yet. We actually made Earth at 2 fuel, without passing a distance related mission or Legendary discovery. We have gotten lucky, as we keep having Cylon Leaders with 2-2 motives, who've ended up throwing in with the humans.
 
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David
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I've played two F2F games - Daybreak plus Pegasus, 6p then 5p both to Kobol - and both were (tight) human victories.

In the first game Cultar's once per game was decisive - turning a likely fuel loss into a human victory.

In the second game the Cylons were only introduced at sleeper phase and revealed or were outed almost immediately. Despite this they almost obtained victory thanks to a succession of CACs.

Things we learnt:

Mutiny made it much easier to get players into the brig and move the presidency, which worked in both pro and anti human ways. The card abilities themselves rarely made much of an impact - it was more about managing the flow. We found the Mutineer in the 6 player game largely an irrelvance (they just didn't draw the jump icons).

Personal Vices and A Better Machine. A lot of the new Treachery cards are powerful but these two are the ones that really caused the humans problems. Because they can be discarded without penalty, they tended to come up at lot more than the likes of Bait and Dradis Contact (since humans tend to hoard the ones with discard penalties).

Reckless cards. The more powerful Treachery cards made reckless cards like Jury Rigged and Guts and Intiative feel more powerful (despite the drawback) - especially when Destiny has been stacked with A Better Machine.

Cultar. His Miracle ability swung both games, stealing OPGs from the Cylons and turning them into resource swings for the humans.

 
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Robert Stewart
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I've played 4 Daybreak games - 3 face to face and one PBF - and it's 2-2.

The f2f games were all played to Earth with all expansions, and conflicted loyalties. One was played with CFB (Cylon win); the other two with CACs (even split). The PBF was Base/Day to Kobol. Both human wins were by a reasonably comfortable margin - activating FTL knowing the outcome of the roll to be irrelevant.
 
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Mark Arnold
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SnarksandBoojums wrote:
I've only played a couple times, unfortunately, but we have yet to see the cylons win with Daybreak. So no, I don't think it's too hard for humans.


We're the same. 2 games only so far, but both human victories. The interesting thing is our human:cylon win ratio is about 10:50 ... so the humans winning two games in a row is huge.

Other interest tidbits...
- All expansions used in one game, in the second we used everything BUT CFB (we don't like it.)
- Humans got to distance 10 both games WITHOUT using Demetrius' distance. Did blow up the hub in one game, and used Captain's quarters heavily. Did line up distance 2, but wasn't able to kick the mission off
 
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Cheza Moonmaiden
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I really want to see how all those players manage to win with the humans at all.

Before Daybreak, it was already really pure luck for the humans to win (using CFB, Pegasus, no cylon leaders, no personal goals [usual a 5p game]).

The thing is, the humans rarely have a moment, where they could have done better... or try out a different strategy. They are most often forced to act in a certain way.

- Humans are struggling with 1 resource being close to zero.
- Centurios have entered Galactica and 2 cylons are ready to push them
- Cylons double-attack with basestars. Humans try to stay out of sickbay, being busy repairing.
- Cylons use the CFB to have Raiders 'damaging' Galactica. Similar problem for the humans.
- Cylons soft-revealed and sent a human player into brig with enough skill cards in hand.
- A cylon admiral used a critical situation, to launch both nukes to nowhere, losing against a double-basestar later.
- A cylon admiral drew a 'Thylium planet' and doesn't risk raptors. He also hords the 'scout for fuel' card.
- Cylons managed to successfully play 1-2 hard supercrisis because they knew to keep their politics cards.
- A cylon used a critical-communication to make humans lose 4 civvies. Later, no true option to use the FTL.

So the most common scenario in our group is that cylons use the CFB to get enough basestars and raiders, using them to damage galactica... causing a potential loss of fuel as well, keeping humans busy repairing and sending them to sickbay (less skill cards). Any Heavy Raider activation sooner or later leads towards a centurio boarding raid. This rarely turned out in a loss for the humans, but it kept them busy for several turns to bring them down. If the humans managed to survive that heavy bombing, cylons either use the 'ftl-pursuit track' and 'place civvies' option, focussing on putting the 'wrong' destination cards on top of the deck, filling their hands with skill cards. This often leads towards unbeatable skill checks or sure losses and make humans struggling for resources.

With Daybreak, it becomes a mess. Humans now have to face a higher distance with no real replacement, even more raiders and civvies (thanks to the new treachery cards) and lose much more actions to get rid of their mutiny cards.

Cylons adepted quickly. They now either place the 'destination' missions on the bottom of the deck, making it unaccessable for quite a while. We also had one 'hidden' cylons activating a random mission just to cause a 'sure' loss also preventing further missions to be activated.

Most cylons now use the 'human fleet' location often to put the wrong destination cards on top of that deck, filling their hands with mutiny causing treachery cards (the german version now doesn't say 'of different types' anymore).

This far too often leads to 1 or more human players in the brig without a real chance to get free. Especially those players who are followed by a cylon have a hard time not being brigged. They can't get rid of their mutiny card before that cylon plays a crisis, using an 'Exploit a Weakness' card to brig him... all too easy.

Just to make this clear. We aren't an expert group and we don't pick the same characters over and over again. (F.e. it's been a while when we last saw Helena Cain around).

But all I can say is that at least our group sheds more and more away from Battlestar towards other games, because we have the feeling that it's so hard that it forces human players too much into a pattern, ruining individuality in this way (like a mass XO on the Captain's Cabin).

Interestingly, the captain's cabin isn't a savior in our group, since humans rarely lose to 'normal' check crisis. More often, they lose because there were too many 'choices' cards with automatic losses. Leadership cards do nothing if you're brigged or against some basestars.

So maybe a cylon leader (helping humans to not losing due to an early victory) or returning to CAC's will fix the game for us, but two 'normal' cylons and a CFB are definitely not balanced anymore.
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