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Subject: Confused with these rules rss

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Robert Huffman
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I don’t know why, but the rules of this game confuse the hell out of me. Part of my problem is my dyslexia, so I am hoping my fellow gamers can help me out. Usually videos are my saving grace, but the videos on this game only confuse me more.

QUESTIONS:

1. What is the difference between the “Extract” and the “Download” mini cards that players get? I know that the “Extract” is used in the advanced game, but the rules make it seem like both cards are basically the same.

2. Do the rules state that a player can ONLY do ONE action (or card) on his turn? A player can’t use both or a combo of any of these Item/Action cards, right? If that is so, doesn’t that slow down the game tremendously? In our gaming group, we play two cards on a players turn (any combo).

3. I was under the impression that every player reveal their actions at one time (on the count of three). Because if you take turns, won’t one player get ahead and get all the advantages? I call this the “Mario Bros. Problem”. Where in a 2 player game of Mario Bros. the lead player gets all the gold coins and the one who follows get’s nothing. This is what turns most of my friends off with this game (they refuse to play it any more).

4. Why does the game use “Advance” or “Retreat” (cards)? Wouldn’t it be better to have ONE movement card (forward or backward) instead? Unless you can use both cards in one round.

5. In our gaming group someone insisted that any NPC advances the clock unless you kill them. Like they would be calling security or 911 and speeding up the authorities to apprehend the operatives. Or are they just a live barrier to more Data Tokens (as it seems to read in the rules)?

6. OK for my biggest questions: Room cards and data tokens;
Let’s use “Moving Sidewalk” room card as our example (a graphic of this card is in the rule book); In the available “Data File Tokens” space is a number “2”. If you look further down, the “Secure Data File Tokens” has a number “4” there. I’m assuming that this room contains “6” potential Data File Tokens to collect. In the rules it suggests that the first operative (or THIEF as they should be called) takes 2 DF tokens according to the rules. But then later the rules suggest that in the “Download” stage, this thief gets 2 tokens only. However later in the rules it states the operative gets more depending on the room. I am probably getting this mixed up with another rule. The first time through I had the first operative getting all the tokens. Then the next time we played, we “house ruled in” only one token per person per download (no exceptions) and this seemed to work better. If the game is “lop-sided” and one player will get all the tokens, how much fun is that?

7. I am still confused about the “Special Room”. On the Special Rooms, the text on the room card say you enter or exit through one particular room. What if those special rooms aren’t in the random shuffling? Then no one can get into that special room? I’ve tried pulling the special room entry and exit points and then shuffling them into the other 5 (1st floor) and the 5 (2nd floor). I’m confused here.

8. It is unclear after reading the rules regarding injured players. The way I read it, once you become injured, you place your operative figure/cardboard piece (that represents your character) on it’s side and then that character is delayed. This “delayed” function means you cannot move your next turn basically. Then the rules seem to state that you may place that token upright again and continue. So the character magically becomes healed? After looking at the room cards, I thought the only way to heal is inside the “Infirmary room” or some item card with “heal” on it? However, to get the the infirmary would take longer than the alarm allows. It seems like if your character becomes injured, your basically going to lose the game. Is that true?

Thanks everyone and sorry for my long questions.
 
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brian
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Stinger8414 wrote:
I don’t know why, but the rules of this game confuse the hell out of me. Part of my problem is my dyslexia, so I am hoping my fellow gamers can help me out. Usually videos are my saving grace, but the videos on this game only confuse me more.

QUESTIONS:

1. What is the difference between the “Extract” and the “Download” mini cards that players get? I know that the “Extract” is used in the advanced game, but the rules make it seem like both cards are basically the same.

They are basically the same (which is why you only use one or the other). The difference is how you collect Data from the room you are in. With Download, the first Player to collect in that room always gets 2 (unless there are less that 2) and each other player, in turn order, gets only 1 (if there are enough). With Extract, the number you get is dependent on how many total people are there. If you are the first one to reveal, you can get up to 4. If you are 2 of 2, then you each get 2 (if there are enough). If more than 2 people are there, you only get up to 1 each.

So Download is a fixed amount regardless of who's there. Extract has a little variation depending on the number of players in that room extracting.

Quote:
2. Do the rules state that a player can ONLY do ONE action (or card) on his turn? A player can’t use both or a combo of any of these Item/Action cards, right? If that is so, doesn’t that slow down the game tremendously? In our gaming group, we play two cards on a players turn (any combo).

One card each (stated on page 5). Some cards grant you the ability to play a 2nd card. It doesn't slow down the game. It just means you have to be a little smarter about what you play when and to make the most of it.

Quote:
3. I was under the impression that every player reveal their actions at one time (on the count of three). Because if you take turns, won’t one player get ahead and get all the advantages? I call this the “Mario Bros. Problem”. Where in a 2 player game of Mario Bros. the lead player gets all the gold coins and the one who follows get’s nothing. This is what turns most of my friends off with this game (they refuse to play it any more).

You reveal one at a time. This counts because of the extraction I stated above. Also, if cards give you an option, you base it only on what you are playing now and what has been played already this turn. This isn't quite the Mario problem as the 2nd player can usually get data as well. But again, you use this to your advantage and where the bluffing/push your luck part really shines. If you think the first player is going to clean up this room, then you move ahead another room so you will be first player in that room next turn. Then you can grab it before he does.

Quote:
4. Why does the game use “Advance” or “Retreat” (cards)? Wouldn’t it be better to have ONE movement card (forward or backward) instead? Unless you can use both cards in one round.

Because it is push your luck. And you need to make the determination of what you are doing before the card is revealed. If you had the choice which way to go, it would take a portion of the pushing your luck out of the game.

Quote:
5. In our gaming group someone insisted that any NPC advances the clock unless you kill them. Like they would be calling security or 911 and speeding up the authorities to apprehend the operatives. Or are they just a live barrier to more Data Tokens (as it seems to read in the rules)?

Each is different. Do exactly what it says. If it doesn't say anything about the time, don't do anything about it. If someone is hiding, how can they advance the alarm? There is logic to which NPC does what.

Quote:
6. OK for my biggest questions: Room cards and data tokens;
Let’s use “Moving Sidewalk” room card as our example (a graphic of this card is in the rule book); In the available “Data File Tokens” space is a number “2”. If you look further down, the “Secure Data File Tokens” has a number “4” there. I’m assuming that this room contains “6” potential Data File Tokens to collect. In the rules it suggests that the first operative (or THIEF as they should be called) takes 2 DF tokens according to the rules. But then later the rules suggest that in the “Download” stage, this thief gets 2 tokens only. However later in the rules it states the operative gets more depending on the room. I am probably getting this mixed up with another rule. The first time through I had the first operative getting all the tokens. Then the next time we played, we “house ruled in” only one token per person per download (no exceptions) and this seemed to work better. If the game is “lop-sided” and one player will get all the tokens, how much fun is that?

Cards have 2 numbers. The first we will call "free" data and the second is "locked" data. The "free" data is what is placed on the card as soon as it is revealed. The "locked" data usually has to be triggered in some way in order to be added to the card. They all go to the same pool for that card so they will be available IF the "locked" data is unlocked in some way.

In the rules this free data is called Available and the locked data is called Secured. So Moving Sidewalk gets 2 Data tokens as soon as it is revealed. You need to interact with the lab worker (sorry can't read the card text with my PDF copy of the rules) in order to bring out the additional 4 data that could be available here.

Quote:
7. I am still confused about the “Special Room”. On the Special Rooms, the text on the room card say you enter or exit through one particular room. What if those special rooms aren’t in the random shuffling? Then no one can get into that special room? I’ve tried pulling the special room entry and exit points and then shuffling them into the other 5 (1st floor) and the 5 (2nd floor). I’m confused here.

The special rooms could be inaccessible during some games. Even if they are in the game, their entry point could also be so deep that no one reaches them. It will just be an occasional bonus room.

Quote:
8. It is unclear after reading the rules regarding injured players. The way I read it, once you become injured, you place your operative figure/cardboard piece (that represents your character) on it’s side and then that character is delayed. This “delayed” function means you cannot move your next turn basically. Then the rules seem to state that you may place that token upright again and continue. So the character magically becomes healed? After looking at the room cards, I thought the only way to heal is inside the “Infirmary room” or some item card with “heal” on it? However, to get the the infirmary would take longer than the alarm allows. It seems like if your character becomes injured, your basically going to lose the game. Is that true?

Thanks everyone and sorry for my long questions.

Being injured slows you down. Basically it is not a "constant" effect. However it is a permanent effect (unless you can heal it). Basically, any time you move with an Advance or Retreat, you become delayed. So you move, delayed. Do something else next turn. Now you can move again, but will be delayed again. The intent is to slow you down, especially during the end game when you are trying to book it out of there. It will take you twice as long when you are injured. Unless you have special cards that grant movement or can activate the rooms to push you back out.

Hope that helps.
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Robert Huffman
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Thank you very much Brian, it's greatly appreciated.

Good luck to your Colts as well. I wish my Phili Eagles looked as good.

Have a great week!

RMH
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
They are basically the same (which is why you only use one or the other). The difference is how you collect Data from the room you are in. With Download, the first Player to collect in that room always gets 2 (unless there are less that 2) and each other player, in turn order, gets only 1 (if there are enough). With Extract, the number you get is dependent on how many total people are there. If you are the first one to reveal, you can get up to 4. If you are 2 of 2, then you each get 2 (if there are enough). If more than 2 people are there, you only get up to 1 each.

So Download is a fixed amount regardless of who's there. Extract has a little variation depending on the number of players in that room extracting.
....
You reveal one at a time. This counts because of the extraction I stated above


I just realised that I've been playing this wrong, but what you said could be misunderstood and played incorrectly.

I always played that everyone reveals their cards at the same time, which is not correct, but didn't really matter in the end because of how the rules read and how we resolved.

Download resolves DF tokens immediately so first player gets 2, everyone else gets 1.

Extract is split based on how many played Extract, but the first does not get 4, second get 2 (if available), the rest get 1 (if available), it's based on all players who extracted.
According to the (PDF) rules:
PDF Rules wrote:
At the end of the Resolution Phase, starting with the first player and proceeding clockwise around the table, each operative resolving an “Extract” card collects available DF tokens from his current room.

So you actually do not get DF tokens for Extract until the end of the Resolution Phase, so you know how many each player will get.
Since we all revealed together, we just split as we went giving each the proper number (as available) for however many played Extract, so that worked out the same in the end.

Except that it could make a big difference depending on if someone later in the turn order did something to unlock more tokens.
For example: 2 DF tokens in room with players 1, 2, 3; 1 extract, 2 extract, 3 breaks a tech lock releasing 3 tokens.
The way we played: player 1 gets 2DF, 2 gets nil, 3 releases 3DF; next turn someone could extract from those 3DF.
Correct way would mean that 5DF tokens would be available and player 1 & 2 would each get 2DF leaving 1DF in the room.

To the best of my knowledge, we never had anything like this happen so it didn't affect any outcomes directly, but it could have made a difference had we known the correct way to play.

I'm too lazy to dig out my paper rules right now, but it probably says the same thing as the PDF and I'll definitely check next time I play.
Thanks for making me re-read the rules!
 
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brian
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I don't typically use the extract card and didn't have it in front of me when answering. So if I had the exact sequence incorrect, then I apologize.

My initial answer (which I edited before posting) did have it the way you described as I thought it was a risk-reward situation where it would be based off the number there. But then answering further and what I thought I was seeing in the rules, made me change it to the answer I posted.

Main point is there is a difference between how Download and Extract work.
 
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Evan
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Wyphy wrote:
Since we all revealed together, we just split as we went giving each the proper number (as available) for however many played Extract, so that worked out the same in the end.

Except that it could make a big difference depending on if someone later in the turn order did something to unlock more tokens.
For example: 2 DF tokens in room with players 1, 2, 3; 1 extract, 2 extract, 3 breaks a tech lock releasing 3 tokens.
The way we played: player 1 gets 2DF, 2 gets nil, 3 releases 3DF; next turn someone could extract from those 3DF.
Correct way would mean that 5DF tokens would be available and player 1 & 2 would each get 2DF leaving 1DF in the room.

To the best of my knowledge, we never had anything like this happen so it didn't affect any outcomes directly, but it could have made a difference had we known the correct way to play.


I think I've seen that happen (I play 2-player, which leads to a lot more of those weird synchronization cases), but the other, much bigger consequence of non-simultaneous revealing which Brian mentioned has to do with item cards. Utility Belt is pretty cool when you're last in turn order, but useless when you're the first.
 
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Chris Gray
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On page 8 of the rules, under "Resolution Phase Example", why does step #6 take place? The room has already been revealed (in the example, Hugo Cash started in that room), so I don't understand why additional DF tokens are getting added to that room. Thanks for clarifying
 
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Because the second player removed the lab worker who was "protecting" 4 DF tokens.
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Dont add the DF tokens locked behind lab worker or tech locks to the room until after the lab worker or tech lock has been destroyed or removed.

And a good tip I use when I'm having difficulty with rules is to slowly read the turn sequence or phase out loud, and stop after each sentence or step, and then do that step, before moving on to the next step. In this way, things like

"The first operative plays and resolves his chosen card by flipping it faceup. Then, the operative to his left plays and resolves his chosen card"

from the resolution phase section of the rulebook become fairly simple to grasp.

Eco

 
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