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Subject: Resolving Action 1. Threat Action timing question rss

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Willie Lothberg
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I got the Z-man edition of the game and I've gone through the rule book and looked in forum. I got a specific question that i have not found the answer for:
During the Threat Action of the Resolving Action the manual says that you should place gained supplies in future resources space and that determination tokens are collected immediately. What about effects?
One threat is putting a +1 strength on the beasts in the beast deck. If that threat is discarded is the threat token removed immediately or when all actions have been resolved?

PS. I really enjoy this game and think that playing the game right is important in coops where you are playing the game as your opponent.
 
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Thanasis Patsios
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willienue wrote:
PS. I really enjoy this game and think that playing the game right is important in coops where you are playing the game as your opponent.


This is not a good prerequirement for someone, in order to enjoy this game. There are a lot of shady points, even after the rulebook has been rewritten twice gulp
Most of the times you'll find there's no definitive answer and most people tend to resort to "follow the most thematic alternative".
 
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Juan Crespo
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I believe effects take place immediately, unless otherwise specified.
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I'd say the same.
Most effects take place immediately, with the exception of things gained (go to Future ressources; exception determination tokens) or tokens placed (take effect after action phase).
 
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Marion
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willienue wrote:
One threat is putting a +1 strength on the beasts in the beast deck. If that threat is discarded is the threat token removed immediately or when all actions have been resolved?


Not sure if I understood your question:
There are 3 book-icon events that tell you to put the +1 beast-thrength besides the hunting deck.
If you resolve the threat, the +1 beast-strength token still stays at the hunting deck. It is removed only after the first hunting action has been taken.

Resolving a threat only saves you from facing another threat, which is shown at the bottem of the event-card, and which will happen when this card leaves the left side of the threat-space.

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Not true, maho.
Some Threat actions reverse the effect of the Event part that happened earlier.

The card that the OP probably meant was "Predators in the Woods" or something similar - where a [+ beast strength] is placed on action spaces IIRC. These are removed immediately.
 
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Marion
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Granted, Dumon.
You are referring to the (green) Adventure-Event-Card where you put the +1 beast-strength-token on the "Explore-Action-Space". Of course this is discarded after you resolve the threat.

I pointed out that I might not have understood the OP-question correctly.
Still what I said is correct. (Even is it was not the question asked).

edit:
I was only referring to this 3 book-event cards I mentioned. I know that there are a lot of cards which reverse their effect after you solved the threat.
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There are several Event cards where the Threat Action reverses the Event effect. Compare:
- Rough Passage, Smoke on the Horizon, Drought
- Predators in the Woods
- Dangerous Night
- Earthquake, Precipice
- Ravishing Hurricane, Thunderstorm, Predators, Predator is Near, Otters
(all names from the original cards)

And while what you say is true, Marion, that ALL Threat actions prevent the Threat Effect from taking place, that is not the only thing. The card text is important. So a generalizing and exclusive answer ("only saves you from") is not always helpful and in its exclusiveness not always correct...


Still, this is not meant as a critique of you, or your answer. It should merely enhance your statement. Please don't be offended...

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No offense taken
Seems that sometimes my answers are too much generalized.
Good to have you to take care of such issues.
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I am a sucker for details, even if (with a game as detail-laden as this) some still escape me, now and again...

...but otherwise...
yuk
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Vincent Lalyman
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willienue wrote:

One threat is putting a +1 strength on the beasts in the beast deck. If that threat is discarded is the threat token removed immediately or when all actions have been resolved?

I've just seen this card in today's game, I think. The event adds a +1 strength token to the hunting deck, and the threat action says to remove the token, right ?
It doesn't tell you to remove the token at the end of the action phase - just to remove it. So I think you should remove it as soon as the threat action is completed.
The rules are clear about ressources, tools that you built, and discovery tokens : you put them into the "future ressource" box. Everything else happens right now, by default, unless specifically stated on the card. Or the rules would provide a way to mark them as "not yet in effect", as it does for ressources, etc.

The rules say (page 9) : "discard the required resources depicted on the card (if any) and follow the instruction on the card. Then discard the card and gain any resources or Determination tokens shown."
I'd just apply the rules : I'd follow the instructions on the card : here, to remove the token.

As I pointed in another thread, the idea that actions are simultaneous and their effects applied only at the end of the phase is NOT the rule itself - it's just an explanation for the reader of why you can't use the tool you just built, or the ressources you just collected, in the same phase you build/collect them. Do what the rules tell you to do - not what you think they should tell you to do. I was also "blinded" by the "simultaneous action" principle, in the beginning, until I stopped asking myself what should be or not simultaneous, and only followed the algorythm provided by the rules. With the idea that the designer knew what he wanted better than I. It solved most of my questions.
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Willie Lothberg
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TheSoundOfTrees wrote:
willienue wrote:

One threat is putting a +1 strength on the beasts in the beast deck. If that threat is discarded is the threat token removed immediately or when all actions have been resolved?

I've just seen this card in today's game, I think. The event adds a +1 strength token to the hunting deck, and the threat action says to remove the token, right ?
It doesn't tell you to remove the token at the end of the action phase - just to remove it. So I think you should remove it as soon as the threat action is completed.
The rules are clear about ressources, tools that you built, and discovery tokens : you put them into the "future ressource" box. Everything else happens right now, by default, unless specifically stated on the card. Or the rules would provide a way to mark them as "not yet in effect", as it does for ressources, etc.

The rules say (page 9) : "discard the required resources depicted on the card (if any) and follow the instruction on the card. Then discard the card and gain any resources or Determination tokens shown."
I'd just apply the rules : I'd follow the instructions on the card : here, to remove the token.

As I pointed in another thread, the idea that actions are simultaneous and their effects applied only at the end of the phase is NOT the rule itself - it's just an explanation for the reader of why you can't use the tool you just built, or the ressources you just collected, in the same phase you build/collect them. Do what the rules tell you to do - not what you think they should tell you to do. I was also "blinded" by the "simultaneous action" principle, in the beginning, until I stopped asking myself what should be or not simultaneous, and only followed the algorythm provided by the rules. With the idea that the designer knew what he wanted better than I. It solved most of my questions.


Thank you Vincent for a great answer. This game is so good that it deserves do be played right. If its not in the rule book do exactly what it says on the card is probably the only way to play this game without troublesome rule discussions all the time.
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Oh, don't be fooled - there will be situations where you will have to look up the answer here - or ask questions.
But don't worry - make up a "house rule" or decision on the spot, and come back here to "clarify" the situation later. Or just use house rules.
But all in all, have fun with the game...
 
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mobydick
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i have one question about the timing of the threat action.

there is a number of things that are gained immediately when solving a threat action, like determination tokens and the +1 weapon level.
in principle, you can use them immediately for the following actions, eg you benefit from the +1 weapon level immediately if you go hunting next to solving the threat action.
logically, you can also use the determination tokens gained by solving the threat action to activate the special ability of your character during the action phase (since you can do it at all times), for instance to re-roll a brown die.

my question: imagine now that solving the threat action gives you enough determination to activate the +1 building pawn ability of the carpenter. can you use it immediately to support one of your building action?

i've noticed that the FAQ explicitly states that there are situations where you cannot activate the 'cheap construction' ability of the carpenter this way, eg when you plan an action for which you don't have the resources (eg the 2 wood for building a roof level) nor the determination tokens (to activate the 'cheap construction ability') right at the action planning stage - even if you are to get the necessary tokens by solving the threat action.

(btw, i'd be interested to know whether you can do this, ie activate the 'cheap construction' ability with the tokens gained by solving the threat action and finally spend only 1 wood for the construction phase, if you have the 2 wood at the action planning stage - which is a different situation).

the situation i describe above is also different, since i do have the ability of planning a construction action w/ 1 pawn only during the action planning stage.
in this context, activating the '+1 building pawn' ability and using it immediately for the subsequent construction action is very similar to gaining +1 weapon level and using it for the hunting action.

so my guess is that the answer to my question is YES. would you agree? and if not, why?
 
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I'd say no because you're now resolving the actions, not planning the actions. You cannot put pawns anymore. But of course I'm not sure...
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Oliver Seidel
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mobydick wrote:
i have one question about the timing of the threat action.

there is a number of things that are gained immediately when solving a threat action, like determination tokens and the +1 weapon level.
in principle, you can use them immediately for the following actions, eg you benefit from the +1 weapon level immediately if you go hunting next to solving the threat action.
logically, you can also use the determination tokens gained by solving the threat action to activate the special ability of your character during the action phase (since you can do it at all times), for instance to re-roll a brown die.

my question: imagine now that solving the threat action gives you enough determination to activate the +1 building pawn ability of the carpenter. can you use it immediately to support one of your building action?

i've noticed that the FAQ explicitly states that there are situations where you cannot activate the 'cheap construction' ability of the carpenter this way, eg when you plan an action for which you don't have the resources (eg the 2 wood for building a roof level) nor the determination tokens (to activate the 'cheap construction ability') right at the action planning stage - even if you are to get the necessary tokens by solving the threat action.

(btw, i'd be interested to know whether you can do this, ie activate the 'cheap construction' ability with the tokens gained by solving the threat action and finally spend only 1 wood for the construction phase, if you have the 2 wood at the action planning stage - which is a different situation).

the situation i describe above is also different, since i do have the ability of planning a construction action w/ 1 pawn only during the action planning stage.
in this context, activating the '+1 building pawn' ability and using it immediately for the subsequent construction action is very similar to gaining +1 weapon level and using it for the hunting action.

so my guess is that the answer to my question is YES. would you agree? and if not, why?


You can use the determination token you gained during the action phase to save the wood while constructing.

Im not sure about the additional pawn and i dont know if this has been answered in detail.

In the FAQ2 i read a statement from Pegasus. They talk about how introducing more and more exceptions rather than streamlinig the rules does not benefit anyone.

So in general you can use every special ability during the action phase if you like a streamlined approach to the rules. I find this to be a good solution in contrast to overcomplicated "thematic ruling".
 
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Saving up on ressources, of course, is possible with Determination tokens spent during the Action Resolution stage of the Action phase. The important part is to
a) have the necessary ressources beforehand and
b) allocate them to the action in question

Take, for example, the situation that you have four wood and need them to construct Shelter (with the Carpenter). You also want to "build" Fire (with the Cook), for which you do not need any ressources. During your Action Resolution stage, two possible scenarios could occur (well, more, but these are important):

1) The Carpenter does not get Det, nor does he have any. Before he can construct the Shelter, the players decide to build Fire. The Cook (present with one pawn) rolls the dice, and the Adventure card he is made to draw instructs him to discard 1 wood. Now, the important thing is that THERE IS NO WOOD TO DISCARD. The wood that the players have is reserved for Shelter construction, and it is impossible to discard 1 and then not be able to construct Shelter. While no player in their right mind would decide to discard (to prevent exactly 1 wound), it is also impossible per se. An action planned during the Action Planning stage MUST REMAIN PERFORMABLE. During the Action Planning stage you can only plan actions that are possible at that time, and these actions need to remain possible later-on.

2) Same situation as in 1, but before the Building actions get resolved, the Carpenter gains enough Det (via Threat action) to use his ability to save wood. He can then (immediately, or when necessary) swap 1 wood allocated to building Shelter with 2 Det at any time, meaning that the Action will still be possible, but there is still one wood to discard, too...

In order to explain this, we need to fall back on the simultaneity "problem" of actions that is so often referred to. Think of it as "while the Cook creates fire, the Carpenter is already hard at work, realizing that he does not need as much wood for constructing the Shelter as he thought he would - and can spare some for the Cook a few feet away".



Regarding the extra pawn that the Carpenter gets, this is another matter, although it is not easy to explain why.
While saving up on ressources, or increasing the Palisade/Weapons track, or creating Food or increasing Morale (remember, in the German version "anytime" still means "at any time") does not alter the physical (or rather, mechanical) steps performed during the Action Resolution stage, placing another pawn does.

If you do one of the above, this changes how much (or what) you need to pay for an action you perform. Whether you suffer wounds or not, basically (because you cannot pay with anything you need for any action planned, so what you pay with needs to already be there, anyways). And that is it - it's basically wound prevention.

If you, however place another pawn during the Action Resolution stage, you alter one mechanical step of the stage. You will change one action where you roll the dice into an action where you NOT roll the dice. Which changes the setup from the Action Planning stage.
But since everything that has been planned during this stage is basically written in stone, no changes possible, this is not allowed.

On the other hand, let's be honest about it - it will not "just occur" to the players that they "now could" make an action safe, the minute they lay their hands on these Determination tokens. The truth is that they intended to use them for this purpose even during the Action Planning stage, calculating with a pawn they NOT YET HAD...
And this, basically, is a no-go. You cannot PLAN with something you do not yet have for your perusal.


So, to make a long story short - saving up on ressources is possible during Action Resolution, placing an additional pawn is not.
 
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Oliver Seidel
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After reading your post Dumon, i think you are right. But there seems to be an easier way to explain why the carpenter cant use his ability while resolving actions: Pawns can only pe placed during the planning phase.

Still, i find it more elegant to allow the special abilities at any given time. Not after rolling dice or drawing cards for example but beforehand.
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Well, it's just what I said, but without all the text around it...


Regarding the German edition (not generally, as this is still subject of debate), "anytime" really means "at any time", so before or after rolling dice and drawing cards, even (if you take Mystery cards into account) "during" drawing of cards...
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Ok all this any time is not any time is confusing me a lot. i have zman base eng + portal voyage.

So which skills are allowed to be used any time?
I can decide i can reroll dice after i rolled them, but i can't build palisade or roof anytime, but my hunter can go frenzy after he card is drawn. Can someone make a list of can and can't for each character, because Robinson rules are even more confusing than playing GS+WM+BS.

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Sorry to put you in this spot.
The thing is that "anytime" is a context thing when it comes to the Original version (and/or the Zman Version). There, it was said that anything that would make no sense regarding the flow of time (things you didn't have before the action you do not just instantly always have had etc.) are impossible.

The new German version included a few "changes" (publisher's decision), one of which was that (in the vein of the original text, without any later interpretation or clarification) "anytime" really meant "any time".

So far there has not been a generalized ruling from Portal's (or Ignacy's) side. This is why two "versions" of the rule exist, both official and correct, but both different.
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Baramon
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Dumon,

So let's summarize. Anytime is anytime.

May I decide to re roll dice after i rolled them, but i can't build palisade or roof anytime, but my hunter can go frenzy after he card is drawn right?
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Baramon, I unfortunately do not know exactly what the result was of the "anytime" discussion here on the forums, as I did not follow it in-depth. I only know how we (i.e. the German publisher) ruled it.

You'd unfortunately have to ask someone else about the details...
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How would you answer my questions above based on German rules? Thanks
 
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Based on the German rules, you can use
- any Special Skill
- any Treasure Card you keep
- any Starting Item
- any Discovery Token
any time you can think of.

There are a few exceptions:
- You can only place pawns during the Action planning stage of the Action phase
- You cannot use things you just built/acquired (exception: Determination Tokens), as they go into the Future Ressources space
- You cannot use anything that will make you "undraw" a card (so that you wouldn't have had to draw it if it is already drawn) or "unroll" a/the die/dice (so that you never would have had to roll them after you already rolled)

That is it. You can reroll dice after they have been rolled, even the Wound die with just acquired Determination tokens (exception to the order of die resolution), you can increase palisades/weapons after you drew a card that makes you realize you need them, you can create food in hindsight, you can heal wounds before you get new ones with the Cook's ability or the Rum Bottle.

In the German edition, anytime literally means anytime!
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