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Subject: Anything for a game rss

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Andy B
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I have no doubt that this is an excellent game.

But, come on! A crappy map, crappy tiles and crappy dice?!

How many of you guys would have paid the same price for no dice, instructions on how to draw your own map and a suggestion to use tiles from Heroscape?

Better yet, why didn't they just provide the fleeced customers a link to download the game instructions and unit graphics and just ship (using the cheapest shipping of course) a bag of wooden blocks and two cans of paint?

I have a feeling that a lot of the fans of this game will still insist that it'd still be worth it. If this game is that good then I've got to have me some!
 
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Paul DeStefano
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I have no clue if that was a positive or negative post...
 
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Kristian Madsen
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Everyone is entitled an opinion, but I'd be surprised if the game isn't sold out in a year or two (now that is good by GMT standards ;) I for one don't think the components look bad.

Is this a culture clash? I've been wargaming for lots of years, and I've never balked at the thought of buying a great game w/bland components.

Not that I wasn't impressed by Eurogame component standards when I started to cross over...

/kgm
 
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Dan Becker
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UncleBuck wrote:

But, come on! A crappy map, crappy tiles and crappy dice?!

How many of you guys would have paid the same price for no dice, instructions on how to draw your own map and a suggestion to use tiles from Heroscape?

Better yet, why didn't they just provide the fleeced customers a link to download the game instructions and unit graphics and just ship (using the cheapest shipping of course) a bag of wooden blocks and two cans of paint?


I dislike all the GMT components (you forgot to mention the box which I also dislike) to some degree. However, I really like the game. In my mind the rules and the scenarios make the game.

I would have prefered the lone rule booklet over the big box game. An electronic version would be fine for me. Hopefully this would have saved costs over the present packaging. And I would have paid plenty of money for it. Maybe not the full GMT price, but close.

This sort of arrangement is common in the miniatures world and is fine by me.
 
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L Myrick
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My take on the components:

The only crappy thing is the dice.

The map: I MUCH prefer the heavy card-stock maps to mounted maps--they're lighter, take up less space, and are much less susceptible to warping. And they can be played with or without plexi for those that prefer it either way--a leap above paper maps without the weight and problems of mounted boards.

The tiles: perfectly fine. Not as thick as DOW stuff, but still very nice.

Blocks and stickers: VERY nice. I like them better than miniatures, which are fussier to pack and move around on the board.


Conclusion: This is exactly what I'm looking for in a game except for the dice (and we haven't even mentioned the gameplay--which rates a 9 easy).
 
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A S
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lmyrick wrote:
My take on the components:

The only crappy thing is the dice.

The map: I MUCH prefer the heavy card-stock maps to mounted maps--they're lighter, take up less space, and are much less susceptible to warping. And they can be played with or without plexi for those that prefer it either way--a leap above paper maps without the weight and problems of mounted boards.

The tiles: perfectly fine. Not as thick as DOW stuff, but still very nice.

Blocks and stickers: VERY nice. I like them better than miniatures, which are fussier to pack and move around on the board.


Conclusion: This is exactly what I'm looking for in a game except for the dice (and we haven't even mentioned the gameplay--which rates a 9 easy).


What he said, except I don't mind the dice at all. The blocks are great and far superior to miniatures for this purpose*, the tiles are good -- certainly, the quality of this game is exactly the same as that of, say, Settlers of Catan.

Just the game is actually fun, too.


*I like minis, mind you. Great in situations like M44 and War of the Ring when you have a handful of unit types and very little complicating info, or in minis games where the figs are more easily distinguishable. C&C:A would annoy me if I had to deal with lots of fiddly figures.
 
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Michael Sosa
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If you understand that wargaming is a niche industry within another niche industry of sophisticated boardgames, then you would accept that war games will be a more expensive and not have the same level of quality as other more popular games. There exceptions of course, typically when a company believes it can sell a lot of copies.

At the quality that C&C:A was produced, I'd buy any game! The rule book is clear, colorful, has historical notes. The map is practical, the terrain hexes are fine, and the dice I can probably get used to. I am willing to accept this level of quality in return for regular releases of historical simulations!
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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beckerdo wrote:
I dislike all the GMT components (you forgot to mention the box which I also dislike) to some degree. However, I really like the game. In my mind the rules and the scenarios make the game.

I would have prefered the lone rule booklet over the big box game. An electronic version would be fine for me. Hopefully this would have saved costs over the present packaging. And I would have paid plenty of money for it. Maybe not the full GMT price, but close.

This sort of arrangement is common in the miniatures world and is fine by me.


Actually, that bunker of a box is one of the best things about the game package! Excellent die-rolling tray and the dread box-smush/corner-splitting is unlikely to ever set in. A decent amount of cool information about the various troop types also adorns the bottom box sides. (Would that MORE game boxes were like this).

A lone rulebook would have been fine, but I doubt many could have found a way to build their own set without spending $60 on the parts they would have to supply: custom dice, figs, a map, composing your own player aids and cards... Even if you could find a way to do it cheap, it would still take many hours to put it all togther before a single scenario were played. A few times longer than simply applying 3-5 sheets of stickers.

While I might wish that we had flats or three-sided blocks for the units, (both for purely aesthetic reasons) I think GMT put together a great GAME that's worth the price.
 
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Justin Borges
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My opinion:
Crappy dice (just use regular ones at the moment)
So-so board (would prefer mounted)
Excellent blocks (I usually love little plastic pieces, but these are fantastic)
Excellent rules (both the general system and how it is applied to the era)
Great scenarios (haven't played them all, but what I've played have been great)
Sturdy box (you can carry lotsa goodies without worrying about them being crushed)

Overall: I'm glad I spent the money on this fantastic game. Who cares about the dice? So the board could be better, whatever. The rest of the components and the gameplay is well worth it.
I'm glad to be one of the 477+ already preordering the expansion.
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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beckerdo wrote:
I would have prefered the lone rule booklet over the big box game. An electronic version would be fine for me. Hopefully this would have saved costs over the present packaging. And I would have paid plenty of money for it. Maybe not the full GMT price, but close.

The lone rule booklet (in French) is already available for free at the GMT site: a pdf formatted as the original, with scenarios, cards, reference sheets... But this didn't stop me from buying the game (and I have tons of minis + the M44 board), and I'm sure that many will be sold in France/Canada.

I think some of you are overreacting based on still few plays of the game (or no plays at all) and/or recent experience with other companies much bigger than GMT.

 
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Kevin Duke
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Thanks, Miguel.

The direction of this discussion seems a little amazing to me too. I just do not see any reasonable expectation that a game company would be concerned about selling a "reduced" version of some intellectual property it owns, just so that some people who want to can play the game with different pieces of their own choosing.

Neither Battle Cry nor M44 worked like this-- those two companies-- with much larger budgets and production capabilities than GMT-- still sold a" box full of stuff." While the "stuff" might have been more appropriate for miniatures players' tastes, someone could make a similar argument that "I don't want to use THEIR figures because I want cooler/better figures (or already have them)."

Did anyone knock Hasbro or DoW for not offering "rules only" or "rules and cards only" as a merchandise item when they first released those games?

One could make the argument about nearly ANY game that "an electronic version would have been suffiicient." But not many game companies work like that yet, do they?

This may be "common in the miniatures world," but I suspect C&C will reach a much wider audience with a "complete" game. Unfortunately a wider audience means a wider range of expectations.

 
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Andy B
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Kevin,

I think you've made some excellent points. However I don't want anyone to get the impression that, and I don't believe it's even been suggested that, GMT should offer a reduced-price version of their game so that people who are going to replace the given components wont have to pay as much.

Look, I'm a conservative and a die-hard capitalist. The price of this game is set based on the rules of supply and demand and I love that. From what I can tell this game is an excellent game and is making millions of geeks everywhere very happy.

Now, there have been a lot of complaints about the game's components. There have also been a lot of defensive arguments made over the components but most of them seem to be saying that it doesn't matter what the game ships with it's still a joy to play. Fair enough. Demand remains high with those players.

If I were to have been casually strolling by this game on a store shelf somewhere I might have snatched it up and run home with it. After I opened it, from the sounds of it, I may have been pretty disappointed by the quality of the components. But it sounds like I'd love the game. Based on that, if I had to buy it all over again I might not pick up that box quite as fast. Perhaps the whole buy game, play game, love game experience might have been diluted because of the feeling of being jipped. We may not be able to put into words why we have those feelings because they're so conflicting but they're still there.

So it's interesting to me to know if everyone had access to feel and play with the components before purchase would they still open their wallets and gladly pry out the same current MSRP. In other words, now that we know that the game ships with dubious components is it still worth the asking price just for the game...the rules in effect? And if so then aren't those dice really a bonus?
 
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Barry Zimmerman
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Absolutely still buying.
 
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robin goblin
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The game does not have 'dubious components' beyond perhaps the dice. In fact, the components are, otherwise, excellent. Yes, I bought the game and would do so again in a second.


Robin
 
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Kevin Moody
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Quote:
A decent amount of cool information about the various troop types also adorns the bottom box sides. (Would that MORE game boxes were like this).
FWIW, almost all of GMT's games have game-related information and graphics along the bottom box sides (and often better than what was done for C&C:A). They're usually a pleasant surprise. The Burning Blue is the only game I can recall that doesn't have this.
 
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Kevin Duke
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Quote:
After I opened it, from the sounds of it, I may have been pretty disappointed by the quality of the components



Well, I guess it depends on which sounds you are listening to.

There has been a lot of complaining about the game--blocks, art, dice, map, box, box art, stickers, confusing stickers, too many stickers, and mostly people sayin that it isn't what they want it to be. There are also a lot of people, like me, who think that the game is, overall, very good. The components are fine. The dice actually do function-- not as sexy as we might like, but they do the job. (And it's easy enough to change those and move on with our lives.) We are having fun with it. Some of us-- me again-- are having more fun with it than we have had with a game in a long time.

I guess I'm a little confused why there is so much complaining-- it's a free world/free market and if someone doesn't think C&C's production values are worth the amount of enjoyment it brings back, they are certainly entitled to their opinion... but why spend so much time SHARING it? If you bought it and aren't happy, put it up for sale. There will be buyers. If you haven't bought it but aren't happy with with what you see-- fine. Go somewhere you can be happy.

I don't have time to list all the games whose rules, components, or overall concept do not appeal to me.
But then, I don't go to those forums and write endless bitching entries about them either.

If you have something constructive that will add to the enjoyment of this game, then by all means share it.

If you just want to loudly sulk like a 7 year old whose Christmas was not up to expectations, then don't you have something better to be doing? What is the value of starting more and more new threads that read "this isn't as good as I wanted it to be," like the 5 or 9 we already have cluttering up this place?

I'm done with these.
 
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Andy B
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Kevin,

Relax.

There's nothing wrong with reviewing the components of a game. I consider the components of a game part of the whole experience. I fully understand that you love the game. You have also made it clear that you wouldn't care if they just left the dice out of the game because you're going to replace them anyway. The dice that were shipped with the game are a bonus item for you.

As far as the free market goes I've already agreed with that. One point you seem to be missing is that the market is affected by negative reviews of a product. If GMT included a map that was torn from a sheet of paper rather than cut don't you think that even the lovers of the game would complain? Would these complaints change a potential buyer's mind? I would think that GMT would be interested in this information and maybe next time you buy a game from them you wont have to replace the dice.

I really don't feel like the people who are giving negative reviews (even though they LOVE THE GAME) of the components are sulking like 7-year old children. As far as I'm concerned it's good information.
 
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John Burt
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As I was stickering blocks I was thinking about the minis vs blocks. What I was pondering was the cost of GMT putting 27 different types of miniatures in a box and whether people would be willing to pay for it.

To compare the cost in miniatures between Memoir '44 and C&C:A is much like comparing hamsters and capybaras. I doubt GMT could have put out this game for less then 100 USD with miniatures, just due to the sheer number and differences between each type.
 
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Jason Sadler
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Just think of the blocks as extra thick super-deluxe counters and whammo! they are teh awesome.
 
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Dan Becker
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I don't see why separate rules and components are an issue for some. Consider the many successful game companies, both larger and smaller than GMT, that sell either rules or components or both. Games Workshop has separate rules and components. In cases such as Lord of the Rings, you can buy just the rules, buy just the components, or buy both together. Battlefront sells separate rules and components. Many smaller companies such as Wargames Ressearch Group, Shieldwall, Armati sell just rules, and other companies such as Essex, Old Glory, or Gripping Beast sell just components. Chess and Go companies only make money on components. Board game companies sell an all in one package. They all seem like viable models to me.

Now consider Command and Color Ancients. I really enjoy the rules and the work Richard Borg has put into it. I enjoyed this game before GMT ever had a part of it. Now GMT has an implementation of it, and for the most part it is usable, enjoyed by many, but I am just not very enthused about their work. And judging by the creative replacement dice, boards, and figures, I think it is a healthy sign of life for the game that people want more.

So for me it's like a movie where you enjoyed the novel, you like director and the screen writer, but you dislike the actors and the music and the editing. It's ok if you say your likes and dislikes because many are here to talk about the movie any how they would do it to suit themselves.
 
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Brett Myers
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UncleBuck wrote:
In other words, now that we know that the game ships with dubious components is it still worth the asking price just for the game...the rules in effect? And if so then aren't those dice really a bonus?


I would strongly disagree with your characterization of the components as dubious. Unlike you, I've actually handled, assembled, and played using the components supplied with the game and I find little to complain about regarding quality. The nearly 350 wood blocks, inluding the dozen or so extras provided, are of the finest quality. The stickers are equally good, and also include dozens of extras/spares. The map is printed on high quality heavy cardstock and the die cut cardboard terrain pieces are of a low enough profile that they seem to become part of the map and are not easily bumped when moving pieces. The dice do leave something to be desired, but that is easily remedied. I would not pay this price for the rules alone, but I have no regrets when it comes to the boxfull of goodness I did purchase. I have already pre-ordered the expansion.
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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I would HATE to play this game with plastic miniatures. Cost issues aside, I haven;t the time or energy to paint them all, so they'd stay as bare plastic. Whereupon telling heavies from medium from light troops would be a real drag, not only during set-up but during play as well.

The blocks are good. I *like* the blocks. Of course, 6mm painted minatures would look better, but they'd cost a heck of a lot more than $65.
 
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Michael Blayney
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Your article made me smile more than once Andy. I took it as being somewhat "tongue in cheek". I'm thinking of buying it as well and couldn't help thinking what my local game store would be selling it for. Someone's making a lot of $$$.
 
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