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Subject: Value of Programs outside of Shaper (Recursion Related) rss

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Lyrael Tyranous
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Well, I was doing some deckbuilding for runners, and I couldn't help but be curious about people's thoughts about the value of programs that a Shaper uses multiple times, outside of Shaper.

Deus X is a good example. In a Shaper deck, its value is obvious, because you can use it a lot of times with Test Runs, Scavenges, Clone Chips, and can find it with Test Run, and Self Modifying code (and that's just in Shaper!) without even considering Levy AR Lab Access

My question is that does the relative inability to use one program multiple times outside of Shaper decrease its value to certain runners?

Examples being:
Parasite
Deus X

I find myself increasingly reluctant to run either in a Criminal Deck, just because there are things I would rather spend influence on, that I can use multiple times, or provide more use than just breaking something once.

There are other examples, but the Criminal one stands out to me the most. I was wondering if I was the only person starting to think this way or not, and if so, why do you agree/disagree?
 
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Adam Perry
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if you install a lot of programs, sahasraha is invaluable. are you just talking about programs that are trashable?
 
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William Frank
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Parasite is a special case--before Atman, Datasuckers were mostly combined with Andromeda and perhaps Doppelganger, with Parasites to help chew through ice. (Still a popular play, mind, it's just that Katmasucker appears to be the new hotness.) And Parasites are more recursive than most other programs, because of Deja Vu.

And of course, Parasite's a virus, so Noise will play it.

And your other example has similar problems--I know a number of runners who keep one Deus X on hand just in case, to avoid nasty AP subroutines firing (Janus, for example).
 
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Kester J
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Recursion is great, but I'd say Self-Modifying Code (and to a lesser extent Test Run) is the real reason 1-of Deus X works in Shaper. If only Clone Chip existed, I'm not sure many people would run DX; as a 1-of, drawing it is far too unreliable when you do need it, and it's not useful enough to justify 3x in a deck to make it reliable.
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Ezio Auditore
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Just look at all the Faerie's in Criminal decks these days and you will see trashable programs are alive and well. Just depends on what you want your deck to do, shaper decks nowadays can be built to take into account the SMC/CC interaction to bring about any program they want. It's the reason the professor isn't the worst runner in history.
 
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Ludovic Gauthier
France
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To answer the question does programs like Deus X lose value outside Shaper deck, I would say Yes, and by that I mean HELL YES !
Even though Deus X is 1 influence, without the 6 to 9 tutors Shaper decks offer, I would never rely on it.
For example, I don't see myself using a Special Order on a Deus X while playing Criminal. I have other tools to deal with AP threat.

And The Professor is far from being a bad runner ID.
A professor deck as so many tools and built correctly can be as aggressive as any shaper/anarch deck.
 
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brodee ee
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Deus Ex is a special case also because having it is as important as using it. Especially because generally you probably shouldn't use it unless it is giong to prevent a flatline.

i.e. the corp has to play different just because they see that you have it out. The runner also has the opportunity to play differently because they have it out.
you can run a little bit more recklessly until you lose it:
a big r&d dig with interface and/or makers eye into 2 snares won't kill you with a deus ex out, so go nuts. Since this isn't likely, the fact that you have the deus ex becomes more meaningful than the actual usage.
you can run at an advanced asset without worrying a junebug will kill you.
 
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