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Subject: Actions terminology + wonder square effect rss

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some other questions :

1/ why are there cards that have the text "Action, 1 per round" like Grand Duchy of Finland and other cards have "Action:" like Suleyman I ?
Both are special actions that replace normal action and are only limited to once per round, am i right ?

2/ the special action of Grand Duchy of Finland just allows to "skip" a turn without playing an action and still stay in game for playing again when the turn comes back (skip pass), correct ?

3/ if i look at the Colosseum, i have the feeling that when i take this wonder under construction then i immediately receive the +3 strength and later when it is ready i receive -2 food... (same for Moai statues, etc.)
but both bonuses should only come when the wonder is ready, right ?

many thanks or your help !
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Daniel Hammond
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You pretty much have the first two answered. The third question's answer is that no Wonder does anything until it is completed (except take up that space on your mat).
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dlhammond wrote:
You pretty much have the first two answered. The third question's answer is that no Wonder does anything until it is completed (except take up that space on your mat).


i could say i knew but my questions were more "why?" :-)
question 1 : why difference in writing then ?
question 2 : why not clearly stated also for the square effect ?

still many thanks for confirming the 0.1% doubts
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Daniel Hammond
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powerwis wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
You pretty much have the first two answered. The third question's answer is that no Wonder does anything until it is completed (except take up that space on your mat).


i could say i knew but my questions were more "why?" :-)
question 1 : why difference in writing then ?
question 2 : why not clearly stated also for the square effect ?

still many thanks for confirming the 0.1% doubts ;)


1) Definitely better to have one way to say the same thing, but if it is clear it does not really matter. You understood how both worked even though they were stated in different ways. Your real question was why and that is valid, it would have been better to pick one way to identify even more clearly a once per turn action.

2) The reason I didn't answer this, is because I don't have the card in front of me and you didn't attach it to your post. I just tried to look for it (I know it was posted somewhere, but I still couldn't find it after looking for a couple minutes).
 
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Rustan Håkansson
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Actions that are limited to once per round say so. If it does not say so you can do them multiple times per round. With Suleiman you can take a worker every time it is your turn as long as you are the strongest.

Wonders have no effect at all until they are moved from the space where they are built to the space where they are ready. Do you mean this should have been clearer in the rules?
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RustanR wrote:
Actions that are limited to once per round say so. If it does not say so you can do them multiple times per round. With Suleiman you can take a worker every time it is your turn as long as you are the strongest.

Wonders have no effect at all until they are moved from the space where they are built to the space where they are ready. Do you mean this should have been clearer in the rules?


Daniel, it seems we were both wrong on the "Action per round" thing !

@Rustan, is Suleyman not to powerful if you can take a worker each turn ??? of course you have to pay for them but still...

It is clear in the rules that a wonder does not have effect until being ready. But as i stated, on the wonder, the square effect is not under the sentence "When ready"...what do you think ?
It could lead to square effect is immediate as for other cards and when wonder is ready then apply the text.
Just trying to help !
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Rustan Håkansson
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It would be difficult to keep the layout and design consistent over the card types if the production symbols were somehow grouped under that heading for wonders I think. During testing there has never been an issue as far as I can remember that anyone has believed that any part of a wonder has any effect immediately when bought. The separation of placement areas has seemed to be fully enough.

Having additional workers is good, but not all-important. If you take many workers you need to make sure they are fed etc, and also spend more stone on upgrading buildings. Having the most workers is by no means a guarantee for winning, even if you get as many VP for them as you possible. Making use of more than one additional worker per turn is hard, making good use of more than 2 is really hard. We have found Suleiman to be interesting and fun, but not overpowered.
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Kim Choy
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powerwis wrote:
RustanR wrote:
Actions that are limited to once per round say so. If it does not say so you can do them multiple times per round. With Suleiman you can take a worker every time it is your turn as long as you are the strongest.

Wonders have no effect at all until they are moved from the space where they are built to the space where they are ready. Do you mean this should have been clearer in the rules?


Daniel, it seems we were both wrong on the "Action per round" thing !

@Rustan, is Suleyman not to powerful if you can take a worker each turn ??? of course you have to pay for them but still...

It is clear in the rules that a wonder does not have effect until being ready. But as i stated, on the wonder, the square effect is not under the sentence "When ready"...what do you think ?
It could lead to square effect is immediate as for other cards and when wonder is ready then apply the text.
Just trying to help !


The "When ready:" is the timing of the bonus, not a reminder of the rules. What I mean is, the bonus is only received once - immediately when the Wonder is finished. The strength bonus is also received when the wonder is finished (as per the rule book) but is permanent. Other wonders give bonuses with different timing, such as "Production:" - during each production phase - or "Scoring:" - during the final game scoring.

I'm also confused about using Suleiman multiple times in one round. In the rules, on page 14 under "The Actions" the last paragraph states:

Rules wrote:
... Some Progress Cards allow you to take special actions. Place a “Used” marker on a Progress Card when you have used a special action on it.


Implying only one use per round, yes?
 
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Also the way that you receive VP from buildings also tends to give diminishing returns when maxing out on workers. From a age 4 building (there is usually a quite strong competition to get those) you get 2-2-1 VP from workers while you only get 2-1-1 from age 3 buildings. To maximize VP from workers players tend to want to get higher age buildings. But the more workers you have on a building also the bigger the investment is to employ all the workers from the old buildings.

To summarize it is usually a good idea to try to fill up all the better 2 VP spots you have. Apart from that getting more VP's from workers is one among several ways to increase your VP count. It is very much possible for a Nation with quite low worker count to also win the game.
 
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Rustan Håkansson
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umchoyka wrote:

Implying only one use per round, yes?


This is more of a hint. You can place a marker when used but the number is not limited
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RustanR wrote:
umchoyka wrote:

Implying only one use per round, yes?


This is more of a hint. You can place a marker when used but the number is not limited


Okay, I'll take your word for it

EDIT: Redacted, take a look at this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13352552#13352552

Specifically, the reply linked above!

Might add that to the FAQ then. As written, it is clear that progress card actions are only used once per round.
 
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Rustan Håkansson
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No, any specific actions described on a card can normally be used any number of times in a round. Sometimes the number of times it can be used is limited to 1 or 2, if it is so then that will be specifically noted on that card. In the linked comment the discussion is about a specific card.
 
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RustanR wrote:
No, any specific actions described on a card can normally be used any number of times in a round. Sometimes the number of times it can be used is limited to 1 or 2, if it is so then that will be specifically noted on that card. In the linked comment the discussion is about a specific card.


They're discussing the Suleiman card also whistle
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Ok, sorry, didn't check that. Einar was wrong, you can use the action on Suleiman several times in a round. I've added a note there as well.

Edit: Einar just wrote about Petra, he is correct but the note I added there is still correct.
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umchoyka wrote:
RustanR wrote:
No, any specific actions described on a card can normally be used any number of times in a round. Sometimes the number of times it can be used is limited to 1 or 2, if it is so then that will be specifically noted on that card. In the linked comment the discussion is about a specific card.


They're discussing the Suleiman card also whistle


you're right !!! (already forgot)

so it seems that the answer from Daniel is false in the linked comment and Einar is confirming it...

not clear for us, not very clear among the authors... whistle

EDIT : i wrote it before your last answer Rustan but forgot to submit to BGG => don't take it into account as you saw that Einar was wrong.
 
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powerwis wrote:

not clear for us, not very clear among the authors... whistle


Edited my answer above. Einar was actually correct, he wrote about Petra as an example, nothing incorrect in what he wrote.
 
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RustanR wrote:
powerwis wrote:

not clear for us, not very clear among the authors... whistle


Edited my answer above. Einar was actually correct, he wrote about Petra as an example, nothing incorrect in what he wrote.


Sorry, but I just have to write this out to be painfully clear (painful being the operative word, I sincerely apologize for my anal retention on this issue):

From the Dev 24: Concepts post, the original post previewed the Suleiman card which has the following special text -
Suleiman I card wrote:
Action: If most (strength):take 1 (population)


To which powerwis questioned (first question of three total) in the first reply to the post -
powerwis wrote:
1/ the special action from the advisor can only be used once per round and then you put a used marker on it. this action replaces one of the 3 normal actions (buy, deploy, hire). am i right ?
...


To which dlhammond replied -
dlhammond wrote:
I believe you are correct on 1. I know you are correct on 2. 3 if a wonder/adviser gave VPs during the game that was clearly stated (so this is almost certainly end of game).


Which Einar responded -
hejnar wrote:
Yes, dlhammond is correct on all three accounts.


To me, this means he was referring to the Suleiman card. I'll still take your rules clarification as correct - i.e. Suleiman can be used multiple times a round. However, there has been some confusion. I think a clarification needs to be added to the FAQ/errata since the rule book indicates the wrong rule.

Again, sorry for rehashing this over and over. If I didn't think that I'd have this exact same conversation with my gaming friends, I wouldn't have bothered
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Kim is right, it was not about Petra but he confirms that Daniel was right and Daniel said that i was right but i was not

complicated
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Daniel Hammond
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powerwis wrote:
Kim is right, it was not about Petra but he confirms that Daniel was right and Daniel said that i was right but i was not

complicated


Not to make it more complicated, but I said that I BELIEVED you were correct on number 1 (which at the time I did). So he was correct when he said I was correct.
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dlhammond wrote:
powerwis wrote:
Kim is right, it was not about Petra but he confirms that Daniel was right and Daniel said that i was right but i was not

complicated


Not to make it more complicated, but I said that I BELIEVED you were correct on number 1 (which at the time I did). So he was correct when he said I was correct.


Normal people would roll their eyes at this point. I'm just sitting here laughing. laugh
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umchoyka wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
powerwis wrote:
Kim is right, it was not about Petra but he confirms that Daniel was right and Daniel said that i was right but i was not

complicated


Not to make it more complicated, but I said that I BELIEVED you were correct on number 1 (which at the time I did). So he was correct when he said I was correct.


Normal people would roll their eyes at this point. I'm just sitting here laughing. laugh


same here
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If I could just add a question about the coliseum, what if I didn't have two food, could I not put it into play?
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quinnox wrote:
If I could just add a question about the coliseum, what if I didn't have two food, could I not put it into play?


yes you can but you lose 1 VP and 2 books (classic rule of missing ressources) !
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Again, and I am FAIRLY sure about this, those costs are paid as part of production, so as long as you can offset negative food with positive food somewhere else you won't have to pay a penalty at all (except losing the food).
 
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dlhammond wrote:
Again, and I am FAIRLY sure about this, those costs are paid as part of production, so as long as you can offset negative food with positive food somewhere else you won't have to pay a penalty at all (except losing the food).


what is it you want to say Daniel ?
 
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