Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Nightfall» Forums » General

Subject: Punishing or BAD as a 2p game? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dean Hunt
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
mbmb
Almost a quarter of voters on BGG say that Nightfall is not recommended as a two-player game. I hear that the main issue is that an early bit of luck or good move can overload the opponent with wounds and it is really hard to come back from.

My question is this...

Is 2p Nightfall a little more unforgiving as a two-player game but still very good?

OR

Is it not very good as 2p and not recommended at all?

Thanks
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My opinion is a mix of the two.

As a 2 player game it can be very unforgiving. Games go lightning quick and one mistake almost always gives your opponent the game.

As a 3+ player game it opens up the door for choices of who to attack and a whole new dynamic enters play.

So it is still good as 2 player, but I would not recommend it that way.
3 to 4 players is ideal, 5 can be pushing it a bit.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brook Gentlestream
United States
Long Beach
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Something about 2 player games just isn't fun. I can't put my finger on it, really.

Maybe its because the moves are too terribly obvious. I can only play one card on my turn, and then chain off that. During my opponent's turn, he will play one or more cards, and if I can chain off that, I probably should. In a four player game, there are more opportunities for chaining, more timing issues, and therefore more opportunities to say "I shouldn't play this just yet."

Maybe that's it, I don't know. All I know is I was ready to get rid of it until I played my first four player game and we all loved it.

Maybe it's not that Nightfall was a BAD two-player game... but I have some GREAT 2-player games in my collection. I'd rather play BattleCon, Innovation, Nature of the Beast, Ascension, Dominion, Legendary, or Pixel Tactics if we are going to play 2-player. If we have three or four players, Nightfall gets serious consideration. Anytime we have only three players, Nexus Ops and Nightfall are the best contenders.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Danish
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I've mostly played 2-player and really enjoyed it. Mistakes can certainly steamroll, but its mostly fast, interactive, and fun is my take.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon
United States
Alexandria
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I play the iPad app 2p with my wife all the time. We really enjoy it that way, but I don't think I would like it with anyone else as someone's face often gets ground into the mud. For some reason, we both like doing that to the other.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Bohm
United States
Appleton
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
Honestly I think it plays best as a 2 player game. Getting wounds early isn't always a death knell, instead it can actually speed up your deck.

The main advantage of 2 player is that you don't have the "gang up" features you have in multiplayer games - for example 3 player is probably my least favorite since it often breaks down to 2 against 1 at some point.

As a suggestion though, I would say that adding more wounds at the start of the 2 player will make the game feel less abrupt and swingy - since it allows more time for strategy to develop and starts to mitigate a few early lucky draws by allowing more turns for the law of averages to work its magic.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Groff-Folsom
United States
Grand Rapids
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The downside to 3+ players is that wound scores are not immediately obvious, so a player that may have gotten up from the table to get a drink or something will not know who to attack when they return. It can be frustrating to try to plead your case only to be accused of misleading that player.

I think 2 player is worth playing, but there is a learning curve. Sure, chaining on your opponent is almost always worth it, but starting a chain might not actually be worth it in the first place. When you do start a chain, you know what colors you'll leave your opponent with. Do you preemptively play a direct damage order as something to dissuade your opponent from following you?

I play primarily 2p on the iOS app, and as my opponents' experience levels have risen, these are the new questions that come up. 3+ players is definitely a different game, but 2p has its own set of quirks and foibles.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacovis
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Never Knows Best wrote:
Honestly I think it plays best as a 2 player game. Getting wounds early isn't always a death knell, instead it can actually speed up your deck.

The main advantage of 2 player is that you don't have the "gang up" features you have in multiplayer games - for example 3 player is probably my least favorite since it often breaks down to 2 against 1 at some point.

As a suggestion though, I would say that adding more wounds at the start of the 2 player will make the game feel less abrupt and swingy - since it allows more time for strategy to develop and starts to mitigate a few early lucky draws by allowing more turns for the law of averages to work its magic.


Fully agree here. Use thirty wounds for two players though, for sure. With more than three players I've found this game less fun. Ymmv.

Cheers!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brook Gentlestream
United States
Long Beach
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, also, since the 2-player draft starts with you getting rid of a card then giving the rest to the opponent, that means you are almost always getting rid of the best card. That means some of the best cards in your collection may not see play in 2-player games.

There are also some card effects, like damaging all players or accessing private depositories, that seem like they were clearly made for games with more than 2 players.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean Hunt
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
mbmb
Interesting.

Is it commonly agreed that 30 cards is best for a 2p game vs 20?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacovis
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
largelylegit wrote:
Interesting.

Is it commonly agreed that 30 cards is best for a 2p game vs 20?


When Nightfall first came out, the biggest problem people had with 2 player was that they felt the game was ending before they had a chance to really make their decks shine. Several players, myself included, tried it out with 30 and found it much more enjoyable. I believe at some point the designer, David Gregg, chimed in and supported the idea, but it has been a couple of years now so I don't recall exactly.

I won't play 2 player with only 20 Wounds. Period.

Cheers
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ill have to give the 30 wounds variant a shot when next we play two player. Thankfully I almost always have at least 3 players available.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Gregg
United States
Franklinville
NC
flag msg tools
designer
NightfallGame.com/FAQ
badge
boardgamegeek.com/thread/1234645
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jacovis wrote:
I believe at some point the designer, David Gregg, chimed in and supported the idea, but it has been a couple of years now so I don't recall exactly.

Not only "supported", but made it the official way to play as of Eastern Skies (IIRC)
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
s3rvant wrote:
Jacovis wrote:
I believe at some point the designer, David Gregg, chimed in and supported the idea, but it has been a couple of years now so I don't recall exactly.

Not only "supported", but made it the official way to play as of Eastern Skies (IIRC)


Every time someone says Eastern Skies I get all antsy! I can't wait to have it in my hands!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana (IN)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
s3rvant wrote:
Jacovis wrote:
I believe at some point the designer, David Gregg, chimed in and supported the idea, but it has been a couple of years now so I don't recall exactly.

Not only "supported", but made it the official way to play as of Eastern Skies (IIRC)


That's great news and an awesome sneak peak while waiting.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Hintze
Sweden
flag msg tools
There are worse burdens...
badge
Cool Cat!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
s3rvant wrote:
Jacovis wrote:
I believe at some point the designer, David Gregg, chimed in and supported the idea, but it has been a couple of years now so I don't recall exactly.

Not only "supported", but made it the official way to play as of Eastern Skies (IIRC)


30 wounds even in games with more than 2 players?

Sounds like alot of cool changes in this set
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Gregg
United States
Franklinville
NC
flag msg tools
designer
NightfallGame.com/FAQ
badge
boardgamegeek.com/thread/1234645
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cazzmataz wrote:
30 wounds even in games with more than 2 players?

Sounds like alot of cool changes in this set

Hmm... I don't remember what made it into the rulebook, but I'm thinking we were pretty settled on 30 wounds for 2-3 players or 40 wounds for 4-5 players.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean Hunt
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
mbmb
**UPDATE** So I went ahead and bought Nightfall, and we tried it over the weekend... within 3 games we had decided that it was our fav deck-builder for 2 players, and I bought 3 more expansions... haha

We did get quite a few rules wrong on the first few play-throughs, the main one being that we didn't discard attacking minions... so we built up pretty huge armies. (whoops).

The rules regarding minions like Vulko blocking player damage were also not fully clear, but I own the iPad app, and often can figure things out by playing that.

Great game, we are super excited for the expansions to arrive.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Gregg
United States
Franklinville
NC
flag msg tools
designer
NightfallGame.com/FAQ
badge
boardgamegeek.com/thread/1234645
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Excellent! Glad to hear it

Feel free to ask any questions you may have here or check the Official FAQ (aka encyclopedia) here on BGG.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad B
United States
Van Buren
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Deus Ex
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, it's one of my favorite games. I love the chaining mechanic; and I love how involved David Gregg is. He's very accessible and very involved in the community. Thanks a lot, David.

Personally I actually prefer 2-player games, but have fun with multiple players as well.

Sounds interesting with the new wound rule.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pedro Reis
Portugal
flag msg tools
mb
Dave41fan wrote:
The downside to 3+ players is that wound scores are not immediately obvious, so a player that may have gotten up from the table to get a drink or something will not know who to attack when they return. It can be frustrating to try to plead your case only to be accused of misleading that player.

I think 2 player is worth playing, but there is a learning curve. Sure, chaining on your opponent is almost always worth it, but starting a chain might not actually be worth it in the first place. When you do start a chain, you know what colors you'll leave your opponent with. Do you preemptively play a direct damage order as something to dissuade your opponent from following you?

I play primarily 2p on the iOS app, and as my opponents' experience levels have risen, these are the new questions that come up. 3+ players is definitely a different game, but 2p has its own set of quirks and foibles.


iOS 2 player here too and fully agres with what you said.
2 player games are fun, frantic and engaging for both parties.
Pay attention to what colors your opponent can leave after his chain and draft accordingly (engrish?). The same advice goes to you while chaining.

3 player games are also very good but can, more often than not, result on 2players ganging on the third: welcome to a Triumvirate relationshio

4players I dont like to play: mainly because of the draft mechanism; of the 4 cards I get to see on the opening draft hand I just pick one and will never see the rest of them ( the third player will pick one out of the last too to go for the commons) so I feel a bit too much blind on what to draft; that does not happen on 2p and 3p games.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.