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Subject: Update from GMT rss

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Tom Stearns
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This was posted in the GMT folder on CSW this morning:

The Supreme Commander Update

We've been listening to the feedback from players of The Supreme Commander. It appears obvious that the game has a few problems and oversights. Please accept our apologies for this - that's not our intent or a standard that we are happy with.

Although we agree with those who are saying that the game isn't horribly broken, we still think there is way too much errata and unresolved Q&A. We're still trying to get our heads around what a comprehensive list of fixes looks like (it's definitely more difficult with the designer deployed), so we don't have a detailed battle plan yet for what and how we're going to fix this.

I just want you guys to know that we are on it and that once we have a handle on exactly what needs fixing, we'll start working to get errata and component updates in the works.

In the meantime, please DO keep playing and enjoying the game. Danny's doing everything he can to answer Qs and give support on a daily basis, but he is understandably limited at this point. Mark and Tony and I are continuing to discuss this and gather a list of things that need fixing and will do that as quickly as possible.

Enjoy the games!

Gene
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Chris Friend
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"Not horribly broken"? Of course not! This is a fabulous game! Best strategic ETO game since 3R, and that was a long time ago! (And 3R was too complex. Like Goldilocks, TSC is just right.) The errata and Q&A I can deal with. That's to be expected in every new game. And Danny's done a commendable job clarifying our questions given the circumstances! (Remember the days of the "send a SASE and ask your question so it may be answered with a yes or no (and you'll get an answer in about six weeks)"?
It's not up to Danny to fix the production problems! Rules clarifications are words. Those are easy with a simple post. We didn't pay him for the paper counters, maps, and charts. We paid GMT for them! GMT, you don't need Mr. Holte to fix the counters, maps, and charts"!

Sorry for the rant. modest I'll be contacting GMT tomorrow.

~ Chris

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Richard Boyes
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Good news.

But it kind of makes me not want to play the game until the fixes are posted. I've got plenty of other wargames and there isn't much attraction to investing time on a game that will likely leave me unsatisfied. And I had just gotten my TSC punched, trimmed, and ready to set up for extended periods. Maybe I'll wait for Unconditional Surrender for that new table.

I wonder what happened during the blind testing phase (if there was one) for this game.
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suPUR DUEper
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Great timing! I was planning on writing them a letter so this saves me the trouble.

Pretty classy response. Nice to see them stepping up to the plate.

I think they have a pretty big job ahead of them though. The problems are manifest throughout the game- rules, maps, set up, player aides. I haven't found many counter issues though so that is a good thing. Plus, it has to be hard on the designer trying to deal with all this stuff on deployment.

For now, I think I am going to wait for the official updates. Unfortunately I don't have the time/energy/patience necessary to assimilate all of the manual updates.

Unconditional Surrender! World War 2 in Europe is on the horizon for November; hopefully GMT will have less development/production problems with that game.
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suPUR DUEper
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friendc wrote:
Best strategic ETO game since 3R


I don't think you play enough strategic ETO games.... whistle


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I totally echo Tom. Dan Holte has done an excellent job of answering question quickly.
 
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Arthur Dougherty
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So just how rough are the problems? I wanted to pick this up to have a relatively quick playing WW2 game for me and my friends when we have a weekend to hang out. I don't want to be scotch taping graphics files I print out to fix the map. Player aids and rulebooks I can always get printed professionally.
 
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hey i am a purdue graduate as well, Boiler up!
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Chris Friend
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TedW wrote:
friendc wrote:
Best strategic ETO game since 3R


I don't think you play enough strategic ETO games.... whistle




You may be right Ted. I was out of wargaming for about 15 years or so until 2 years ago. Life and kids took over. So I missed out on a lot of great titles.
 
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Tom Stearns
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I think this game certainly fits a niche. It appears to play fast with low counter density and moderate-low complexity. Definitely easier rules than any version of 3R. The rules from a mechanics standpoint appear sound, though they do require you to look at this game and scale a little differently than we have in the past. Some of this is discussed in other threads. The rulebook needs some editing and I'm sure a living version of the rules is around the corner. The map and charts may have to be reprinted and redistributed. Another post on CSW clarified that GMT is not going to distribute the game to retailers at this point. They are going to wait until a strategy to fix things has been determined.

If you have the game it is worth playing through some turns to get an idea of how it works. You will probably need to read the rule clarifications here on BGG or CSW. I have played 7 turns and have enough of an idea of how the game works to know that once the fixes arrive it will be a good 2-4 player game that plays fast and is relatively easy. No post-purchase dissonance here....
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Chris Friend
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Agree with all Tom. I can work through the charts and map errors, but the idea of Living Rules would be awesome!
 
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Chris Friend
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awdougherty wrote:
So just how rough are the problems? I wanted to pick this up to have a relatively quick playing WW2 game for me and my friends when we have a weekend to hang out. I don't want to be scotch taping graphics files I print out to fix the map. Player aids and rulebooks I can always get printed professionally.


Arthur - Nothing really all that significant. Don’t let it deter you from buying a great game. The issues I am aware of are:

• You can see by reading this forum there have been a number of guys asking for rules clarifications, but Danny has been responding as soon as he can, usually within a half day or so if not sooner.

• Minor printing errors on a few counters. I don’t have the game in front of me but as an example, say the Germans have 5 fighters in the countermix. They should be marked 1 thru 5 but instead are marked 1-2-3-5-5 (no 4).

• Items missing from the map. Specifically, the borders delineating Vichy France and the German/Soviet division of Poland are missing, but Danny has posted images of them so you can either mark them on the map or mark them on the plexi with a Sharpie. A crossing arrow (indicating a Strait) is missing between Sicily and Italy.

• The Terrain Effects Chart is misprinted -- terrain features which add to the defender’s strength in combat are printed as a negative number. For example defending behind a river adds 1 but it’s printed as -1. (But in the case of a Fort which adds 2, it’s printed as -3).

• The Diplomatic chart is misprinted as A3-A3-A3-N-G1-G2-G3 when it should be A3-A2-A1-N-G1-G2-G3. No big deal. (This indicates the current diplomacy level of a minor nation, i.e. how far towards the Allied or Axis side it’s currently leaning. Those levels can change depending on the level of effort a faction is using to swing a minor closer to it’s side. Also the starting diplomatic levels listed in the rulebook for the starting 1939 scenario is different than the starting levels on the chart. (The chart is correct.)

• The turn record track has one or two minor omissions. There are national flags in certain turn boxes indicating a major nation is due reinforcements that turn (new units are put into the nation’s force pool and are now available to be built.) For example on Turn 5 the UK has new units available but the UK flag is missing. Again, nothing that can’t be overcome.
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Arthur Dougherty
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Thanks for listing these out.

Is the diplomatic chart its own sheet that could be rectified and distributed as a PDF? Is the same true of the Terrain Effects Chart and the turn record chart? I don't worry about rules problems because of the prevalence of living rules systems. If those other items are indeed their own distinct cards, then it doesn't seem like too big of a deal.

The counter misprint and the missing items on the map are disappointing, probably more so for the designer and publisher than for me, but still disappointing. Maybe I've been lucky so far (I never ordered Crown of Roses which I've heard had a lot of mistakes), but the list of errors, while workable, is pretty unacceptable for a professionally published game and it goes beyond what errors I've seen in other titles. Glad to see some response to rectify the issues.

I ordered my copy from a retailer, so it sounds like those copies are getting held up for the time being. More than willing to wait to let things get settled before receiving my copy. Look forward to it very much (I really want to use Supreme Commander to break the hold Axis and Allies has on my large, more casual group for WW2 ETO).
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Chris Friend
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awdougherty wrote:
Thanks for listing these out.

Is the diplomatic chart its own sheet that could be rectified and distributed as a PDF? Is the same true of the Terrain Effects Chart and the turn record chart?


The Dip Chart is on 8 1/2 x 11 card stock but is also printed on top left part of the mapsheet. The TEC is also an 8 1/2 x 11 card which also has the CRT, the Air and Naval Combat Table, and a couple other things. the reverse side has the Unit Cost Chart, Unit Build Chart and a couple other tables. Game comes with two of these, one for each player. (The last picture in the Images section is of these two cards.) Turn record chart is only printed on the top right part of the map.
Egad, yes, time to give A&A a break!
Chris

Edit - recent pics in the images section are courtesy of Tom, the OP.
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Stan Grossman
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I was very pleased to read the note from GMT over on CSW, certainly good news I'd say. I've finally managed to get the game on the table today, and hope to get in a few solo turns soon.
 
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Arthur Dougherty
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Thanks for the response... yeah, I've been wanting to break that group's Axis and Allies habit for a while and this seems like the perfect game to do it with.

I have to admit, given that the diplomatic chart and the turn record chart are both on the map, I hope GMT prints a new map - and fixes the missing area and sea crossing while they're at it. Obviously players can get by, but I feel like they shouldn't have to with such obvious stuff. Hopefully a new map is part of the fix from GMT (I'd be disappointed personally if it wasn't even though I expect to really enjoy the game).
 
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suPUR DUEper
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awdougherty wrote:
So just how rough are the problems? I wanted to pick this up to have a relatively quick playing WW2 game for me and my friends when we have a weekend to hang out. I don't want to be scotch taping graphics files I print out to fix the map. Player aids and rulebooks I can always get printed professionally.


I will be a little more critical than the others and go so far to say it is unplayable out of the box without significant support from either BGG or CSW. Chris does a good job of highlighting the major physical problems. There are also numerous rules issues to contend with (e.g. supply).

In its current state, it is an advanced playtest kit. If you don't mind adding borders, penciling in clarifications, reconciling rules and tables, and hashing out ambiguities with your group you will be fine. If you want a finished product requiring a minimal amount of support you should move along.
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Karl Kreder
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awdougherty wrote:
I ordered my copy from a retailer, so it sounds like those copies are getting held up for the time being. More than willing to wait to let things get settled before receiving my copy. Look forward to it very much (I really want to use Supreme Commander to break the hold Axis and Allies has on my large, more casual group for WW2 ETO).


As a side note the fact that GMT is holding this game means other orders are holding as well, I got an e-mail from my online retailer that Napoleon Against Europe is be held up till GMT straitens this out. Hope it is soon cry
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Chris Friend
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A little bit of clarification regarding the issues I previously posted.

On the Turn Record Track (TRT), besides the missing UK flag on Turn 5, there should be a Soviet flag on Turns 19, 28, and 37. These are the turns they receive Partisans. No other issues with the TRT that I am aware of. Of note is that every chart and table on the 2 Player Aid cards as well as the Diplomatic Chart card are printed along the top of the map. Only the TRT is not on a separate card. I've not even really looked at the backprinted smaller map to address that, but it's cool that they did that for guys with limited table space.

The misprinted German counters are not the fighters, but are the Flak units. No affect on game play. There is an earlier thread which lays out all the misprinted counters.

The one misprinted counter issue that will affect game play unfortunately are the USA Fighter and Bomber Decoy units. The reverse (Support) side has a Naval anchor on it. It won't affect my game play because I'm a solitaire gamer and won't be using Decoy counters, but it will affect FTF players rather significantly. (If someone comes up with a cool way to incorporate Decoys in a solo game please let me know.)

It will be interesting to see how and when GMT plans to resolve all this. I want this game to be a 10.

~ Chris
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Arthur Dougherty
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TedW wrote:
awdougherty wrote:
So just how rough are the problems? I wanted to pick this up to have a relatively quick playing WW2 game for me and my friends when we have a weekend to hang out. I don't want to be scotch taping graphics files I print out to fix the map. Player aids and rulebooks I can always get printed professionally.


I will be a little more critical than the others and go so far to say it is unplayable out of the box without significant support from either BGG or CSW. Chris does a good job of highlighting the major physical problems. There are also numerous rules issues to contend with (e.g. supply).

In its current state, it is an advanced playtest kit. If you don't mind adding borders, penciling in clarifications, reconciling rules and tables, and hashing out ambiguities with your group you will be fine. If you want a finished product requiring a minimal amount of support you should move along.


Honestly, my real thoughts on what I'm hearing is that this release is unacceptable for a professional game company. If GMT doesn't definitively state that they're printing a new map for this one, I'll probably cancel my order. I can live with printing out new cards on stock, and living rules are just how things are these days (and maybe in a good way as I look at Air Strike from GDW... about 17 pages of rules and it still had 4 pages or errata).

I wonder if there was some additional schedule crunch toward the end given the designer's impending deployment? Either way, I feel like GMT dropped the ball here and it makes me wonder, given how they operate, if maybe they rely to heavily on the designers toward the end of the process? No idea, total speculation on my part.

Given all the really good things I've heard about Battle For Normandy, I look forward to Supreme Commander getting fixed as well as the day when my Battle for Sicily pre-order ships.
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Arthur Dougherty
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friendc wrote:
A little bit of clarification regarding the issues I previously posted.

On the Turn Record Track (TRT), besides the missing UK flag on Turn 5, there should be a Soviet flag on Turns 19, 28, and 37. These are the turns they receive Partisans. No other issues with the TRT that I am aware of. Of note is that every chart and table on the 2 Player Aid cards as well as the Diplomatic Chart card are printed along the top of the map. Only the TRT is not on a seperate card. I've not even really looked at the backprinted smaller map to address that, but it's cool that they did that for guys with limited table space.

The misprinted German counters are not the fighters, but are the Flak units. No affect on game play. There is an earlier thread which lays out all the misprinted counters.

The one misprinted counter issue that will affect game play unfortunately are the USA Fighter and Bomber Decoy units. The reverse (Support) side has a Naval anchor on it. It won't affect my game play because I'm a solitaire gamer and won't be using Decoy counters, but it will could affect FTF players rather significantly. (If someone comes up with a cool way to incorporate Decoys in a solo game please let me know.)

It will be interesting to see how and when GMT plans to resolve all this. I want this game to be a 10.

~ Chris


Ok, so it sounds like they definitely need to redo the map and some counters.
 
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Chris Friend
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zeotter wrote:
awdougherty wrote:
I ordered my copy from a retailer, so it sounds like those copies are getting held up for the time being. More than willing to wait to let things get settled before receiving my copy. Look forward to it very much (I really want to use Supreme Commander to break the hold Axis and Allies has on my large, more casual group for WW2 ETO).


As a side note the fact that GMT is holding this game means other orders are holding as well, I got an e-mail from my online retailer that Napoleon Against Europe is be held up till GMT straitens this out. Hope it is soon cry


Wow, that sucks! Wonder why they would put a hold on shipping out another game because of the issues with TSC? If they are also putting a hold on individual orders in addition to retailers, I'm glad I got my copy when I did, in spite of its warts.
 
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Kevin Bernatz
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Greetings all,

Just letting everyone know that I'll be helping Dan work through the various kinks that occurred during final production. With him being deployed, some of the oversight got, well...over/looked/ gulp

I've been compiling everyone's comments from here and at CSW and will be working through the rulebook + components to nail down everything that is inconsistent and then we'll work with GMT to do the best that they can do to "make it right", I'm sure.

From the various AAR's I've read, it seems that under the production snafu's (not really Dan's fault), the game is playing nicely and has been very well received. So lets just get the rules and component issues fixed and hopefully we'll have a real gem on our hands!

Please continue to provide feedback on issues that you find confusing or appear incorrect. Separate BGG forum posts with a clear title and relevant rule sections would be awesome, but not required. Thanks!

-Kevin Bernatz

Assistant Developer The Supreme Commander
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Chris Friend
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Way to go Kevin! Thanks!!! It is a gem. thumbsup
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TedW wrote:
Great timing!

Unconditional Surrender! World War 2 in Europe is on the horizon for November; hopefully GMT will have less development/production problems with that game.


I have test version of UCS. It rocks. It is a monster that is very manageable.

I kinda want both... It would be fun to compare. they cover the same subject but, I believe they do it in very different ways
 
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