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Subject: Airport security rss

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Isaac Citrom
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While fooling around on YouTube I found this interesting piece by the Wall Street Journal about airport security.

The report compares procedures to the TSA in the US.



(Note: The WSJ report is incorrect that El Al has a perfect security record. An El Al airliner was hijacked in 1968. Furthermore, Ben Gurion airport (called Lod, then) was the site of a serious terror mass shooting in 1972.)
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Walt
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"For more than three decades..." are the first words spoken.
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So do you want Israeli style security at airports?
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Sounds to me to be highly suspect. I'd rather queue for longer knowing that the security apparatus isn't going to ask me to identify my religion/culture or stop people based upon their ethnicity.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:


I will remind you that Jesse Ventura tried to take the TSA to court. The federal gov't argued and a federal judge ruled that the TSA was not under the jurisdiction of federal courts.


Not courts, that particular court:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19259087

"Nelson ruled that her court wasn't the proper venue to hear the case. She wrote that other courts "uniformly hold that all challenges to TSA orders, policies and procedures must be brought in the Circuit Court of Appeals....The government's motion to dismiss is therefore granted."

The Circuit Court Of Appeals is a federal court.
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Koldfoot wrote:

The TSA is the American gov't sanctioned, unionized version of Hitler's Brown Shirts.


I'm not really seeing a parallel between the TSA and the SA. I'm not saying that it is impossible for the TSA to become the thugs used by a political party to consolidate power and terrorize their enemies, I just think it's improbable. You might make the case for an early SS, but I don't think they have any skillset for actual Gestapo type operations, at least yet.

Further, I don't see any compelling evidence that the TSA was formed with any purpose other than what was stated at the outset. Saying it can develop into something is one thing, but saying it was all planned that way from the start requires some evidence.
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Not to hijack the thread but why is the USA still using body scanners when they've already been shown to be increasing the incidence of cancer in TSA agents (who don't even pass through them, just work near them) and they've also already been banned across all of Europe?

I've been asked many times to go through one and never have - I get quite enough radiation as it is.
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Chad
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There is simply no way that Israel's style security can work in the US.

1) Israel is TINY - they have effectively 2 International Airports with Ben Gurion handling the vast majority of flights - as opposed to the US

2) They unabashedly profile - they make no bones about it. One of my coworkers (Indian Muslim) looked the part - they took one look at him and he got to go to the side room for 2 hours of questioning. Second co-worker, Balkan Muslim descent (looked anglo, but with an Arabic name) - they looked at his paperwork (i.e. name) and away he went. While myself, Anglo with a "safe" Anglo name passed right through (and waited 2 hours for them to come out)

3) Israel's concepts of civil liberties and the US's - waaaaaaay different.

4) very much a seige mentality in Israel - i.e. everyone is out to get us. Moshe may disagree - but there is an underlying.....tension in Israel

So, while the idea of "hey the Israelis are good at this sounds good on Facebook - the reality is that there are some fairly unique circumstances that make it work.
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bjlillo wrote:

Is cancer for TSA agents a bug or a feature?


It's all part of the "plan". The people looking to implement the American Empire want TSA agents to be their shock troops, but they don't want any one individual to get too influential or powerful. So, the scanners are putting in biological timers in the agents, then a new agent can be brought in. It's pretty obvious (and prevents a politically messy Night Of The Long Knives).
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I think maybe overt profiling would be better than what we have.

I can't speak for TSA, but I had an employee whose first name was Mohammad that lived in Canada (Pretty sure he had Canadian passport, too). I think he averaged calling in late about once a week because his car had been selected for a more thorough investigation at the border.

He eventually got an apartment on this side of the border.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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Utrecht wrote:
There is simply no way that Israel's style security can work in the US.

1) Israel is TINY - they have effectively 2 International Airports with Ben Gurion handling the vast majority of flights - as opposed to the US

2) They unabashedly profile - they make no bones about it. One of my coworkers (Indian Muslim) looked the part - they took one look at him and he got to go to the side room for 2 hours of questioning. Second co-worker, Balkan Muslim descent (looked anglo, but with an Arabic name) - they looked at his paperwork (i.e. name) and away he went. While myself, Anglo with a "safe" Anglo name passed right through (and waited 2 hours for them to come out)

3) Israel's concepts of civil liberties and the US's - waaaaaaay different.

4) very much a seige mentality in Israel - i.e. everyone is out to get us. Moshe may disagree - but there is an underlying.....tension in Israel

So, while the idea of "hey the Israelis are good at this sounds good on Facebook - the reality is that there are some fairly unique circumstances that make it work.


The civil liberties between Israel and the US are not, as you say, waaaayyy different. They are indeed different as one liberal democracy's laws differ from another, for example vis-à-vis freedom of expression (hate mongering).

Civil liberties, as anything else with Jews, generally, takes a back seat to reality. The fact of the matter is that as a rule the threat of aero-terrorism comes from young olive-skinned Muslim males. It makes perfect sense to focus energy there as opposed to the white Anglo-Saxon grand-mother. In the US, that grand-mother, the 300 lb lodge member, and the Mormon family of eight suffer equally with everyone else at the foot of the moral relativism altar.

You speak as if what is going on that Israeli authorities are not pursuing a demonstrably successful system of security, rather they are persecuting Muslims for the hell of it.

As to a siege mentality, aren't you being disingenuous, when actually most everyone is against them (see the UN conferences on racism as just one example of many) and ordnance falls out of their skies daily. It's not a siege mentality as you mean it, rather they have a sober reality-based approach to security.

Let's place blame where it really belongs; not with security, rather with those people whose very tactics it is to manipulate civil liberties in order to insert threat, mayhem and death (see smuggling explosives and terrorists in ambulances as just one example).


So, I guess Americans need to decide whether they want to do away with the present level of security, and gain more convenient freedom of movement. And, whether they are willing to pay the price in lives. That there is a price in lives is certain sure as evidenced by the many thwarted plots discovered throughout the world and the US, unsurprisingly orchestrated by olive-skinned young males.

Or, on the other hand, take an approach to airport security that is tied to reality.
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isaacc wrote:
The civil liberties between Israel and the US are not, as you say, waaaayyy different. They are indeed different as one liberal democracy's laws differ from another, for example vis-à-vis freedom of expression (hate mongering).


There are significant differences - search and seizer laws in Israel are significantly tilted against the individual

Quote:
Civil liberties, as anything else with Jews, generally, takes a back seat to reality. The fact of the matter is that as a rule the threat of aero-terrorism comes from young olive-skinned Muslim males. It makes perfect sense to focus energy there as opposed to the white Anglo-Saxon grand-mother. In the US, that grand-mother, the 300 lb lodge member, and the Mormon family of eight suffer equally with everyone else at the foot of the moral relativism altar.


And this is what I speak of - trying to implement the Israeli style border security in the US simply won't work - many of our core belief structures won't let it happen - and please do not misunderstand me - I am not saying that what the Israelis are doing is wrong - absolutely not - it works very well for them and their society.

Quote:
As to a siege mentality, aren't you being disingenuous, when actually most everyone is against them (see the UN conferences on racism as just one example of many) and ordnance falls out of their skies daily. It's not a siege mentality as you mean it, rather they have a sober reality-based approach to security.


No attempts at being disingenuous - and again, as you say, this is the facts on the ground for them - but the Israelis (especially native ones) are wired a bit differently - even personal negotiations tend to have a flavor of this mentality in them (again, there is nothing wrong with this - just something to be aware of)

Quote:

Let's place blame where it really belongs; not with security, rather with those people whose very tactics it is to manipulate civil liberties in order to insert threat, mayhem and death (see smuggling explosives and terrorists in ambulances as just one example).


Not sure where you are going with.

Quote:

So, I guess Americans need to decide whether they want to do away with the present level of security, and gain more convenient freedom of movement. And, whether they are willing to pay the price in lives. That there is a price in lives is certain sure as evidenced by the many thwarted plots discovered throughout the world and the US, unsurprisingly orchestrated by olive-skinned young males.

Or, on the other hand, take an approach to airport security that is tied to reality.
.
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Isaac - I suspect that you and I are pretty much aligned here both on why the Israelis do what they do and the challenges America faces. I always have to laugh though when threads like this come up - applying it to the US wholesale wont work. However, does it make sense to steal stuff (for example the first line of questioning with the (usual very cute) young lady? Absolutely)
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Andy Szymas
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Koldfoot wrote:
Interesting IF the TSA was designed for security.

It was not.

It was designed to get the American public used to government abuses under the guise of protecting them.

In 100 years, when the early history of the American Empire is written, the TSA will be noted as the precursor to the current secret/internal security apparatus, and its founding a significant date on the road to the demise of the American Republic.

The TSA is the American gov't sanctioned, unionized version of Hitler's Brown Shirts.


I will remind you that Jesse Ventura tried to take the TSA to court. The federal gov't argued and a federal judge ruled that the TSA was not under the jurisdiction of federal courts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/04/jesse-venturas-tsa-...

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

The TSA is, literally, above the law.

The TSA should make every American very nervous.

Three pages of accusations that I am a nutjob follow. It may be true. No arguments here. On this issue, take some time to do your own research. It is important.


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I will only point out that Israelis act as security advisers all over the world. It's a major industry here, trusted by many governments, celebrities, etc.
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whac3 wrote:
I will only point out that Israelis act as security advisers all over the world. It's a major industry here, trusted by many governments, celebrities, etc.


Also,

the 2 main providers of security system management and analytic came out of the Israeli defense research team (including the ability to perform threat detection based on body language)

the main provider of financial fraud detection is another IDF spinoff

They know their shit
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TheChin! wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:


I will remind you that Jesse Ventura tried to take the TSA to court. The federal gov't argued and a federal judge ruled that the TSA was not under the jurisdiction of federal courts.


Not courts, that particular court:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19259087

"Nelson ruled that her court wasn't the proper venue to hear the case. She wrote that other courts "uniformly hold that all challenges to TSA orders, policies and procedures must be brought in the Circuit Court of Appeals....The government's motion to dismiss is therefore granted."

The Circuit Court Of Appeals is a federal court.


A federal court which does not afford the opportunity for a jury trial.
 
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Lord_Prussian wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:


I will remind you that Jesse Ventura tried to take the TSA to court. The federal gov't argued and a federal judge ruled that the TSA was not under the jurisdiction of federal courts.


Not courts, that particular court:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19259087

"Nelson ruled that her court wasn't the proper venue to hear the case. She wrote that other courts "uniformly hold that all challenges to TSA orders, policies and procedures must be brought in the Circuit Court of Appeals....The government's motion to dismiss is therefore granted."

The Circuit Court Of Appeals is a federal court.


A federal court which does not afford the opportunity for a jury trial.


What here would be appropriate for a jury to decide?
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:


I will remind you that Jesse Ventura tried to take the TSA to court. The federal gov't argued and a federal judge ruled that the TSA was not under the jurisdiction of federal courts.


Not courts, that particular court:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19259087

"Nelson ruled that her court wasn't the proper venue to hear the case. She wrote that other courts "uniformly hold that all challenges to TSA orders, policies and procedures must be brought in the Circuit Court of Appeals....The government's motion to dismiss is therefore granted."

The Circuit Court Of Appeals is a federal court.


Enlighten me. How do you get to a circuit court of APPEALS if you can't get a hearing in lower court, be it an Article I court or an Article III court?


They can also hear appeals of federal agency decisions. The decision to conduct these kind of searches might count for that.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:


I will remind you that Jesse Ventura tried to take the TSA to court. The federal gov't argued and a federal judge ruled that the TSA was not under the jurisdiction of federal courts.


Not courts, that particular court:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19259087

"Nelson ruled that her court wasn't the proper venue to hear the case. She wrote that other courts "uniformly hold that all challenges to TSA orders, policies and procedures must be brought in the Circuit Court of Appeals....The government's motion to dismiss is therefore granted."

The Circuit Court Of Appeals is a federal court.


Enlighten me. How do you get to a circuit court of APPEALS if you can't get a hearing in lower court, be it an Article I court or an Article III court?


Without the actual transcript, it's a little hard to be sure, but it's possible the judge was referring to the Federal Circuit:

The Federal Circuit is unique among the thirteen Circuit Courts of Appeals. It has nationwide jurisdiction in a variety of subject areas, including international trade, government contracts, patents, trademarks, certain money claims against the United States government, federal personnel, veterans' benefits, and public safety officers' benefits claims. Appeals to the court come from all federal district courts, the United States Court of Federal Claims, the United States Court of International Trade, and the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. The court also takes appeals of certain administrative agencies' decisions, including the United States Merit Systems Protection Board, the Boards of Contract Appeals, the Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences, and the Trademark Trial and Appeals Board. Decisions of the United States International Trade Commission, the Office of Compliance, an independent agency in the legislative branch, and the Government Accountability Office Personnel Appeals Board, and the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance also are reviewed by the court. The court's jurisdiction consists of administrative law cases (55%), intellectual property cases (31%), and cases involving money damages against the United States government (11%). The administrative law cases consist of personnel and veterans claims. Nearly all of the intellectual property cases involve patents. Suits for money damages against the United States government include government contract cases, tax refund appeals, unlawful takings, and civilian and military pay cases.
 
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Rich Shipley
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Koldfoot wrote:
I have been lead to believe the judge in question refused, or could not, specify which court had jurisdiction. Ventura could not pursue the case, because of jurisdictional dead ends.

There seems to be little need to pontificate on possibilities.

At this point the TSA is not answerable to any court. We peons can only speculate. Theoretically, only the Supreme court could hear the case, at this point.

We just have to wait for someone in a different state to take the TSA to court, and maybe the next federal judge will make a different ruling.


According to a couple sites I've found, he didn't pursue it at the Court of Appeals because it wouldn't be a jury trial:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/05/former-minnesota-...

The constitutionality of a federal agency decision isn't something a jury decides. Ventura just sounds like an idiot here.
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Koldfoot wrote:
We just have to wait for someone in a different state to take the TSA to court, and maybe the next federal judge will make a different ruling.

It's already occurred: EPIC vs DHS
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Drew1365 wrote:
Is there anyone in this thread who would object to the TSA being shut down completely?


It depends on what you mean by that.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Is there anyone in this thread who would object to the TSA being shut down completely?


It depends on what you mean by that.


It's pretty clear, isn't it? The TSA goes away completely. No more federal agents fingering granny, no more government workers molesting children, no more horny old men feeling up college girls on holiday. Gone. Shut down. All TSA agents unemployed.


So airline employees take over those activities?
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Drew1365 wrote:
Is there anyone in this thread who would object to the TSA being shut down completely?


Not me.
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Koldfoot wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Ventura just sounds like an idiot here.


I am absolutely amazed that someone could look at this and not find the TSA or the judge to be the idiot, rather than the man who had his civil rights violated and is looking for redress against an unaccountable federal agency that serves little purpose, other than to justify its existence.

Take a step back and realize that you can blame Bush. You don't need to besmirch your messiah for starting such a asinine agency.

Now... Explain to me why it makes perfect sense to a legal scholar such as yourself that a federal judge has no jurisdiction over this federal agency, which stands accused of committing violations within its jurisdiction.


I have no problem with him challenging the TSA here. I can even understand some frustration when being told that he needs to put this before a different court. But deciding that he'd rather throw a hissy fit and try to renounce his citizenship is where he goes into idiot territory for me.
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