Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
8 Posts

Cosmic Encounter» Forums » Rules

Subject: Crystal Power VS Mirror Flare rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Aubert
France
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello everyone,

Here is a little problem where I'm absolutly not sure of the answer :

This is the Crystal power : You have the power to Refract. As a main player or ally, use this power after both main players reveal attack cards. Any one player on your side can discard one attack card from his or her hand that matches the value of your side's revealed attack card. If a player does so, multiply your side's revealed card by the discarded card's value. For instance, if your side reveals an attack 08, any one player on your side may discard an attack 08 to change the revealed card into an attack 64. (Emphasys mine)

This is the Mirror flare : As a main player, after encounter cards are revealed, you may change your encounter card into a duplicate of your opponent's encounter card.


So, Crytal and allies is on the offense.
Offense and Defense has the same amount of ship involved.

We reveal our cards.

Offense : '08', Defense : '20'

Crystal activate its power and discard a '08' card to change its '08' into a '64'.

Now I play Mirror flare.

What happens ?

1) The power of Crytal turned the revealed card into a '64', so I copy it and get a '64' too. And so I win.
2)The power of Crystal turned the revealed card into a '64' but the number written on it is still '08'. So I turn my '20' into a '08' and lose even more.
3) None of the above, and I will win/lose depending of a overlooked rule/interaction.

I checked the Cosmodex 2.0 but didn't find a definite answer and all answer has its pro/con.

All comments, opinion and definite ruling are welcome.

Thanks in advance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hankroyd wrote:
1) The power of Crytal turned the revealed card into a '64', so I copy it and get a '64' too.

It's this one.

We discussed issues like this here a few times on BGG, and Phil Fleischmann came up with a pretty good rule that when an encounter card's type or value is changed, other effects have to respect the new identity if they are related to encounter resolution, or have to respect the old identity if they are not related to encounter resolution.

The Cosmodex has a whole essay on this, with many examples, titled card modifications.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Aubert
France
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Awesome

Thanks for your answer.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Homer Simpson
Israel
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not saying that you are wrong, Bill, I'm just suggesting another perspective here:

Wild Mirror wrote:
As a main player, after encounter cards are revealed, you may change your encounter card into a duplicate of your opponent’s encounter card.

In that example the encounter card itself is still an Attack 08. If Wild Mirror is turning it into a duplicate of [that] encounter card, then it has to be the 08.

What do you think?

(I don't think we should argue about the whole thing again. I'm asking specifically on the Wild Mirror's wording)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
homertve wrote:
Wild Mirror wrote:
As a main player, after encounter cards are revealed, you may change your encounter card into a duplicate of your opponent’s encounter card.
In that example the encounter card itself is still an Attack 08. If Wild Mirror is turning it into a duplicate of [that] encounter card, then it has to be the 08.

No, I disagree; the card has already been turned into an Attack 64. It is no longer an Attack 08 for any effect that is related to encounter resolution. The card isn't just being multiplied by 8 on its way to affecting the encounter total; according to Crystal's text, it was explicitly changed into an Attack 64.

The whole point of the crowdsource-rule was to have a consistent interpretation; if you make an exception for this case, then how do you know which other situations should receive exceptions?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Thomas
United States
Palmyra
Virginia
flag msg tools
Check out our journey at http://colinbethanyadopt.wordpress.com
badge
"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - The First Ideal of the Lightweavers (The Stormlight Archive)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bill Martinson wrote:
homertve wrote:
Wild Mirror wrote:
As a main player, after encounter cards are revealed, you may change your encounter card into a duplicate of your opponent’s encounter card.
In that example the encounter card itself is still an Attack 08. If Wild Mirror is turning it into a duplicate of [that] encounter card, then it has to be the 08.

No, I disagree; the card has already been turned into an Attack 64. It is no longer an Attack 08 for any effect that is related to encounter resolution. The card isn't just being multiplied by 8 on its way to affecting the encounter total; according to Crystal's text, it was explicitly changed into an Attack 64.

The whole point of the crowdsource-rule was to have a consistent interpretation; if you make an exception for this case, then how do you know which other situations should receive exceptions?


Would a Morph card also be changed to an A64? Or was it changed to A08 and is thus, no longer a Morph?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
paedia wrote:
Would a Morph card also be changed to an A64? Or was it changed to A08 and is thus, no longer a Morph?

The morph happens immediately upon reveal, so it's already an 08. Crystal and Wild Mirror are both optional effects that are invoked after the reveal (and any effects triggered by the reveal, such as morph).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
↓ first, last name ↓
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hankroyd wrote:
Crystal activate its power and discard a '08' card to change its '08' into a '64'.

Now I play Mirror flare.

What happens ?

The real answer is: it depends on who "I" is.

You made it clear in your post that "I" is the defense - the Crystal's opponent. In that case, I agree with Bill. Due to the way the power is written, the *card* is changed to an Attack 64. It isn't merely a modification of the attack total. The Wild Mirror also modifies the *card* value, so for consistency, it must be the 64.

One might make the case that the word "duplicate" would refer only to the original card, but I don't think that's the case, because it would be different for other types of effects. For example:

Tripler plays Attack 10. Opponent plays 20. Tripler's card immediately becomes a 30. Opponent plays Wild Mirror. Does the opponent's card now become a 10 or a 30? I say it becomes a 30.

If the Crystal plays the Wild Mirror himself, his 64 would then become a 20.

If the Crystal had played the Wild Mirror before the additional 08 was played, his card would become a 20, and then would require another 20 to use his power (becoming an Attack 400). It would not be valid at that point to play an 08 - this would not turn it into a 64 or a 400 or a 160.

In that other discussion, the basic rule I proposed is:

* If it's about calculating totals to see who wins an encounter, always use the modified value of the card - whatever has been done to it by powers, flares, hazards, Morph, Tech, Space Stations, etc.
* If it's about anything else, use the face value of the card - the "ink". (This includes such effects as the powers of the Hate and the The Claw.)

Also, as I understand the rules, a Kicker only modifies the Attack total (when played with an Attack card), it does not modify the card itself. So if a player plays Attack 10 with a x2 Kicker, and his opponent plays Wild Mirror, the opponent's card becomes a 10, not a 20. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.