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Subject: Are torpedos worth 5pts? rss

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Matt
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In a game so focused on action economy, I find myself asking if torpedoes are worth the 5pts?

Only ships I consider them viable on are ships that have a small attack dice pool (e.g. apnex/reliant) or the breen ship due to it's ability to retain target lock. I don't ever think they'd be viable on a ship with a base 4-5 dice.

However, as described below, i'm not even sure the torps are worth it on these ships:
In the case of the reliant/apnex you are only able to fire them 1/2 rounds due to the need to target lock & reload the torpedoes, so economy quickly falls off after your first alpha strike. For 1 extra point, you could swap a reliant + torps for a 5 attack dice negh'var class (26pts) and retain your actions for the entire game.

As for the breen ship, its 26pts + 5 for the torpedoes = 31 pts. At 31pts, you lose your action each round to do 5 dice damage.

Compare this to the Klingon negh'var which has 5 dice as standard for 30pts, you pay less points, retain an action, have a cloak and 1 extra hit point as well as the ships own ability.
 
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Cap'n Ginger
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Tinculin wrote:
As for the breen ship, its 26pts + 5 for the torpedoes = 31 pts. At 31pts, you lose your action each round to do 5 dice damage.


With Thot Gor, each weapon upgrade costs 1 less, and the Gor Portas doesn't require you to burn target lock. So that's 30 points, and you only lose your action the first time you target lock, or if you use target lock to reroll and have to reacquire it.
 
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Alton Todd
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Had them on my klingon list, never really use them, traded them out for crew. Happy with the change and don't miss the torps at all.

So for me I don't see the value at this time.
 
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Duane Bruun
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Unless a ship has a rear firing arc, I tend to avoid tossing torps onto it. I tend to agree that action alotment gets extremely tight when trying to utilize torps, especially when facing cloaked ships.

The only advantage of torps is the negation of Range 3 def bonus plus the built in bonuses of certain cards (+1 on certain Kling ships, Battle Station -> Crit).

These bonuses do, however, get much more appealing once you look at non-Klingon ships. Since both Kling fatties have a natural 5 attack, torps are usually never considered as opposed to running them on a 3 attack Rom or Federation ship. That's when I feel you start seeing the price become a little more palatable.

Once we start getting more resources, the 5 points for torps will likely be overshadowed by the 5 point investment of the resource anyway. laugh
 
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Robert Wyant
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I think for ships with rear firing arcs Photons are Great!
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Well you left out the Miranda and Galaxy class options using the rear firing arc for torpedo shots. The fact that all the non-klingon 5 point torpedo let you convert or reroll something. Along with the torpedoes not giving +1 defense dice at range 3.

On all the attack 2/3 ships having a way to get 5 attack dice can be big at the right time. Note, the Apnex doesn't have a weapons slot. A Miranda class with torpedoes costs 23 points for the 5 dice and 21 points for the 4 dice versions. So it depends on what you're trying to do with your build. I think on a multiple D7 build torpedoes have a place, along with Magnetic pulses.

Now there is a whole thought system on if the reroll from target lock being better on the 5 attack dice ships but that's a different thread.



 
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Fastback M
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I tend to use the 3 point versions from the Miranda and Constitution. The only drawback is 4 dice instead of 5
 
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Lee Long
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For Romulans, the Tactical Officer is FAR better than torps.
 
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Matt
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capnginger wrote:
With Thot Gor, each weapon upgrade costs 1 less, and the Gor Portas doesn't require you to burn target lock. So that's 30 points, and you only lose your action the first time you target lock, or if you use target lock to reroll and have to reacquire it.


Thot'Gor costs 4 pts, so you are now paying 34 pts to my 30.
I now have 4pts over you, an action more than you (your torps are still disabled on the gor portas and require your action each round), and an extra hit point.

Admittidly as pointed out you do get to convert a battlestations to a crit - but as my action could be a target lock (reroll) and those 4 points could be on valdore & donatra (+1 attack dice to fleet) or a tac officer, i'm just saying that on paper torpedos do not seem like an optimal choice.

The Miranda (23pts for 5 dice) is a nice boost, though can only fire her torpedos every 2 rounds - however she has the best firing arcs in the game, so if you can get out of arc of your opponent could really take full advantage of them.
 
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D Conklin
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Does the OP 2 Command Token resource (ie, extra Actions) make torps somewhat more viable?
 
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Cap'n Ginger
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Tinculin wrote:
capnginger wrote:
With Thot Gor, each weapon upgrade costs 1 less, and the Gor Portas doesn't require you to burn target lock. So that's 30 points, and you only lose your action the first time you target lock, or if you use target lock to reroll and have to reacquire it.


Thot'Gor costs 4 pts, so you are now paying 34 pts to my 30.


True, true--I admit that I wasn't actually trying to mathhammer the whole list out (not a hardcore min-maxer), just offer one of the many possible combinations the game allows.

In answer to your original header question--are torpedoes worth 5 points?--my personal reaction is, maybe! Depends on the list/faction preference/scenario rules/player inclination to gamble/etc and so on. Some people like them just for the flavor, or the possibility of a dramatic result.
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Obsolete Man
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MikeWyant wrote:
I think for ships with rear firing arcs Photons are Great!


Yeah, I'd almost always take them on a ship with rear arcs, and I'd never take them otherwise. They are especially useless for Klingon ships of Vor'cha-class or Negh'Var-class... the 5 points could be put to so much better a use!
 
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Eric Phillips
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This is a good thread, made me reevaluate my next build. I am going to put Picard on the Reliant and photons. Should be able to fire them once every round in almost any direction. Nowhere to hide!
 
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Picard makes up for the limitations of Torps, but only on a ship that doesn't already have a 5 attack.

I do like them on the Miranda as it gives you a massive firing arc, though even then I would hesitate to take them over Antimatter Mines. They are so much more effective against the masses of cloaked ships.
 
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Erin OConnor
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Only played the one time so far, but the ship specific torpedoes (that get a +1 attack die when used by XYZ ship) are really nice. Basically you are rolling 6 attack dice at a ship with 1 (maybe 2) defense dice + any actions.

Depending on the captain, crew and other factors they can be even more devastating.

They are re-useable but 1 shot seems to be quite sufficient to get shields down or be a kill shot.
 
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Tinculin wrote:
In a game so focused on action economy, I find myself asking if torpedoes are worth the 5pts?


Depends on the Torpedo and the ship you're putting it on.

If you're putting it on the Negh'Var (or other ship with high Primary attack score) probably not.

Putting it on a ship with a rear firing arc (probably not named Enterprise D) and things start to look up.

The ignoring the range modifiers can be nice.

Getting 2 (or more) dice (compared to your primary weapon) out of them is better........very good on the USS Reliant


It's also important to keep in mind that we've only really seen 13 out of around 27-ish (because we're not sure how the LEs fit in to that #, I believe) ships........and like X-Wing we are going to see abilities that key of Secondary Weapons (like Captain Jonus)..........and one of Andrew's many teases of the Voyager expansion has been that Tuvok will make using secondary weapons more appealing (or something along those lines).

Also Quantum Torps are going to be awesome. devil
 
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Keith McCallig
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I'm not yet convinced on the Quantum Torpedoes - the problem is that they only get the +1 Hit if the actually hit. With the large number of cloaking opponents that can be problematic. 5 dice will net you 2.5 average hits. While 5 dodge dice average 1.875 and 6 dice will average 2.25. Thats a very good chance for a cloaked ship to completely evade the Quantum Torpedoes and the +1 hit will not even factor.

Regular (Federation) Torpedoes on the other hand convert 1 battle station to a crit. Over 5 dice this will average an extra three quarters of a hit (which is also a crit). This means you are more likely to hit the enemy vessel in the first place and have a very good chance of that hit being a crit.

Without Battlestations or rerolls Regular Torpedoes will average 3.26 hits per roll (of which 1.39 will be Crits on average). Quantum Torpedoes average 2.5 hits (of which 0.63 will be crits) with a +1 hit if you actually hit to bring it up to 3.5 total.

This means that while Regular Torpedoes do 93% of the damage of Quantums under the best of conditions for the Quantums, the regular Torpedoes will do two and a fifth the number of criticals on average and have a much better chance of getting at least one of their crits past a cloak.

I tend to take pretty general lists without knowing what kind of fleet my opponent will be fielding and just looking at the numbers the Regular Torpedoes feel like the better/more versatile deal. (That and they are a point cheaper )

Quantums will certainly have their place - for low agility ships (or 0 agility stations) they will be very good at popping shields. But personally if I'm taking Torpedoes I'll most likely be taking the plain version.

Note: At 3 points the 'Old' torpedoes that come with the original enterprise and reliant are actually a pretty good deal and can be good against cloaked opponents. The convert a battle station to a crit part gives you a very good chance of getting a crit in there at a very good price. I've actually found them great against fleets without cloaks - once you drop their shields and start pounding the hull you can smack a lot of crits in there.

Just my 2 cents,
Keith Mc
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Good points Keith.

But if I'm poping a Quantum Torp I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a Battle Station going on at the same time.

(Still in that mode from X-wing)

Which shouldn't be that difficult as I'm probably going to be running QTs on the Defiant and that means I'm usually going to be running Martok(non-LE) as well as that is themey fun.

Even easier if I'm using the Command Tokens as well.
 
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The Shrike
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I agree with a few people here.

1. Need a rear firing arc.
2. The Breen Torps are great by themselves with the 1-3 range on them. Better with the no-use Target Lock to fire.
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