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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: Thoroughly dissatisfied with the Defiant and Sisko rss

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Nova Cat
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OK, I'll admit... DS9 was my favorite Star Trek series, so I recognize that I may be a little biased, but even accounting for that, the game designers obviously aren't familiar with the show.

The Defiant is supposed to be the hardcore combat ship Starfleet has ever built; the only true warship in the fleet. Yet, when you compare the stat card for the defiant to a luxury liner like a galaxy class, it come up really short.

Weapon: First off, its weapons are equal to a Constitution Class ship. Bear in mind that the Defiant is a cutting-edge warship described as "a set of guns strapped to an engine," and a Constitution class ship is an exploration vessel 80 years out of date. What the hell.

Maneuverability: The Defiant has no business having an agility score of less than 3, and you could make the argument for 4. Its entire design is for speed and dodgey-ness. I haven't seen the maneuvering wheel, so maybe it's got some made jukes there, but in the show, on many occasions, they relied on dodging attacks rather than absorbing them.

Hull: Hull score of 3? Really? The designers think that the Defiant is more fragile than a constitution class ship? Really?

Shields: A shields score of 4 is on-par with the Enterprise, and I think that's actually arguably correct. No big deal was made about the ship's shields, and their armor is represented by the ablative armor ability on the ship.

Cloaking: So the Defiant's cloaking device is bad. Really bad, since you can't pull the cloak-attack-cloak tactics of the klingons and romulans. Why it's different than any other cloaking device, we may never know. Frankly, it would have made more sense for the Defiant to have a cloaking device built-in on the card, rather than it being an upgrade.

Overall, the Defiant as printed is a puny ship, when it should be the powerhouse of the Federation fleet. The thing was designed to take on the Borg, for crying out loud.

...OK, one rant done, next rant coming up.

Sisko is printed with a captain's skill of 6 for no reason other than because WizKids doesn't want to offend TNG and TOS fans. There's no other justification for him not having a 9 like Kirk and Picard. He's the hero of the Dominion War, with more combat time logged than Kirk and Picard combined. In a game that's all about combat, he should be AT LEAST on par with them.

But DS9 is the less popular show, so Sisko gets shafted.
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Eric Phillips
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100% agree. The Defiant is underwhelming. And Sisko was my favorite Captain. I loved DS9.
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Jeff Whaley
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Well tell you what, let's do this: let's ask Andrew.

Mr. Parks,
Would you be able/willing to discuss with the community the planning and execution that went into creating the Defiant expansion for Attack Wing.

Seems some folks are finding the abilities less than stellar (sorry, that pun was just hanging out there) in light of how the Defiant has been portrayed in both the DS9 series as well as in one of the TNG movies. While I'm not a fan of complainers shouting out before something is even available to be used, I have to allow that in this case there may be some validity to the dissatisfaction some have with this particular expansion's stats.

I'm hoping you see this thread and can take a few moments to both explain how the Defiant's stats came about and to promote why it would be a good expansion to have. I myself have yet to develop an opinion about the expansion yet. I will say the Jem'Hadar seemed able to nerf the ship fairly well in the beginning, so that may have informed some of the thinking into the abilities of the ship.

Anyway, I was just wanting to see your input on this before another complaint thread about an aspect of the game steamrolls into multiple pages of angst.
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Michael Ptak
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Is WizKids missing the mark for stats on Attack wing starships? The B'Rel sparked an argument about whether it was also appropriately stat'ed!

I AM Wary about the Defiant-class having more firepower than the Galaxy. Ever since I saw their incredible attack stats in the "birth of the federation" game compared to larger ships, I found it really strange that such a tiny ship was a better fighter. Of course, I also find it a little demeaning that TMP ships are equated with next gen ships, treated like redshirts, and don't represent the better militarized federation before the peace treaty with the Klinks.

I agree that Sisko should be higher though, around 7 or 8 if you're not going to make him a heavy hitter like Kirk/Picard. Sisko is a capable commander and should be treated as such, not equated with Riker. I don't think his ability is overpowering either. It's been said that these cards are designed to consider all factors... what factors went into stat'ing Sisko the way he is?
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Dusty S
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Poor Andrew...
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richard oliver

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Well first off At the beginning of TOS, and TNG Kirk and Pircard respcetivly are in command of the FLAG SHIP of the Federation. They are in a position that is a Life Time Goal for Career Officers.

Sisko at the begining of DS9 is the commander of a obscure outpost. The Card for Sisko is let us say represents Season 3-4, He a new Capt. He is still in his first command position, albeit an Important one. As we have already seen from the Prize Support previews there is going to be a second Martok Card at Capt Value 9. So this means that at some point they can and probably will release a new Sisko Card that will represent him while he is a Strategic Planning Officer during the dominion war with a Capt. Value of 7-9.

Now to the Defiant. yeah, that ship should have 2 hull and 3 shields, look at this link. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Lakota

Do you see that small thing that looks like it is trying to get a piggyback ride from the Lakota, thats the Defiant.

This is a side by side of the USS Enterprise-A and the USS Execlsior from Star Trek 6 http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/excelsior/excelsi...

Hmmm... me thinks the Enterprise could handle such a tiny nusence easily... but wait the Defiant is a Warship! Look that just means that it has little to no Medical, Science, Living Space, Cargo Space, Recreation, etc... It also means that it needed a smaller Engine. Sure it feels like your doing a thounsand miles an hour on a Motorcycle, but a Lamborgini is still going to blow by you like you were standing still.

Fast and agile? So are Klingon Birds of Prey, that did'nt help them much. Cloking device, they borowed one from the Romulans, so it isn't a 100% compatable, don't you remember O'brian complaining about trying to get Federation and Cardasian systems to work together on DS9, why would this be any diffrent.

The only reason that the Defiant was assigned to Sisko instead of a BETTER ship like say a SABER or AKIRA class starship is because Sisko worked on building the Defian and requested it. His last posting was Utopia Plaitia Fleet Yards (Emmisary Part 1).

SO there you have it. While DS9 was my favorite show out of the Star Trek Franchises Sisko would get his ass handed to him by Picard in just about any situatioin, and while the Defiant was well armed and armoured, you are forgetting FOR ITS SIZE.

Have a nice Day.
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Lester Gash
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I love DS9, it's my favourite show (just! TNG is also amazing!) but I think you're overestimating the Defiant a bit. It was, for such a small ship, overpowered. But it couldn't output the kind of firepower a Galaxy class can - it just doesn't have as many guns, for a start.

It struggled against an Excelsior class, albeit one upgraded with modern weapons and shields (which one has to presume can't have been better than a Galaxy class's!) and, in reality, didn't do much to the Borg either.

The Defiant was small and, yes, dedicated for war. It was designed to be built en masse - a cheap weapons platform. It was not some supership that outgunned everything else Starfleet had.

It *is* unfortunate the game includes all eras, in some ways - unfair comparisons are invevitble. There's only so much the limited set of numbers can represent and you either make the 23rd Century ships utterly awful compared to 24th (and so they never get used and seem sad) or go for a more tempered approach and have ships that might actually see the field but are still clearly less good.

EDIT: I do think giving Sisko a skill of 6 was just asking for trouble though. He IS superior to Riker though - Riker doesn't have an elite ability slot.
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I love DS9 too but I don't agree that the Defiant should be that powerful. It wasn't the flagship of the Federation like the Enterprise was. They also had a whole mess of problems getting it to work because of all the weapons strapped to it. It was designed to fight the Borg and the one time it did, it almost got destroyed.

I don't think I remember seeing that many Defiant class ships. I like to think it was because it wasn't as stable as most Federation ships. In the episodes I remember, they seemed to sacrifice one aspect of the ship for another to get something to work.

That said, I do expect it to be more maneuverable than the larger Federation ships. It's ability to convert crits to hits seems pretty powerful to me.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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The attack is what seems low to me. It's fragile, but 4 would be right for it, and maybe bump it up on the squad cost if they're worried about Defiant spam. In relation to the B'rel it also does seem off too, if we can open that can of worms. It would also help with the Federation's firepower problem. So far in the few games I've played I see the Enterprise D being taken a lot and people just not running all Federation because of a lack of attack dice, although the Miranda gets in there for cheap sometimes just to hold a captain with buff effect. If the Defiant gets 1 turns, that could be huge though.

As far as Sisko being a PS6, well, he's no Riker.
(Please don't kill me!)
 
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Scott Kelly
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Is this the same fanboy-type rant that was going on the one thread for the better part of 1+ weeks? (I can't seem to find the thread though.)

The Defiant does not have the firepower of a Galaxy class. The Defiant wasn't even the best ship in the area, as Admiral Ross obviously saved that for himself.

Sisko blows compared to Picard, Kirk, Janeway, Pike, Riker, Archer, etc. He

I love DS9, but get over the fanboydom already. Geesh.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Don't forget, much of the Defiant's firepower came from Quantum Torpedoes. With the included torpedoes, the ships damage ceiling doubles and it can pack quite a wallop to go with its good maneuver dial.
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Trueflight Silverwing
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I would have possibly liked to see the Defiant have one more attack and possibly one more agility, but all of the rest of the stats seem pretty spot on for the ship. It was smaller and more maneuverable than other starfleet ships, but at the same time carries less weaponry and shielding. For its size, it had a lot of firepower, but compared to something like a Galaxy class it should be outgunned. The ability to turn critical hits into normal ones is very powerful to begin with. In regards to the cloaking device, only the original Defiant had one and it was destroyed by the Breen in a battle with the Dominion. The only other Defiant class ship, the Sao Paulo was renamed Defiant and given to Sisko, but it did not have a cloak. The only other similar ship was the Vigilant, but that was a different ship type (which also didn't cloak).

As for Sisko, a 6 is pretty fitting of his skills. He has the elite upgrade slot which already puts him ahead of Riker, who I think was a better captain than Sisko ever was.
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Andrew Parks
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We listen very carefully to all feedback, and we appreciate your passion.

For the Defiant, we spent quite a bit of time playing that ship. It is a powerful little vessel and did quite well in playtests. The Hull usually reflects the relative size of the ship; that is why it has a 3 Hull, but the ablative armor kicks in with its card text.

For its attack power, we base this partially on its ship size but also on the nature of its weapon strength. One of the Defiant's signature attacks is the Quantum Torpedoes, easily one of the game's most powerful weapons so far. Two weapon slots alternating between Quantum and Photon Torpedoes and you'll barely even remember it has a Primary Weapon attack, quite honestly.

Regarding Sisko's Skill #, this is a judgment call based on watching countless episodes, as well as Sisko's overall status within the fleet. While he is a capable leader, his primary role is commanding DS9. In battle, he is effective but did not seem as strong as many other captains. Regardless, he has an Elite Talent Upgrade which signifies he is capable of surprises. Also, you should not underestimate his special ability. Being able to re-roll a die every single round, without spending an Action or any other cost, is very tough over the course of a battle. It's particularly nice in combination with torpedoes, when you're spending your target lock and then getting to re-roll a die as well. And if you don't need it on attack, well then now you have it for defense. It can be quite nice.

And of course there is always the possibility of future versions that reflect him at a more seasoned point in his career! cool

As a general note, we also always have overall game balance to consider. We know that you will not all agree with the stats that we've assigned, but please know that we do not make these decisions casually. We talk and analyze, we playtest, we evaluate, and then we make a final call.

On a final note regarding both Sisko and the Defiant, there was a time during playtests that the ship was dominating everything. It has a lot of options, it's cheap, it's maneuverable, it has a rear firing arc, and it's the first Federation ship with a Tech Upgrade. We hope that you'll find it fills out your Federation fleet nicely! cool

Andrew
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Xander Fulton
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Lezta wrote:
I love DS9, it's my favourite show (just! TNG is also amazing!) but I think you're overestimating the Defiant a bit. It was, for such a small ship, overpowered. But it couldn't output the kind of firepower a Galaxy class can - it just doesn't have as many guns, for a start.


That's the impression I had for it, too.

What made it special was that, for the Federation, it was an INSANE amount of firepower on a very tiny platform. The Galaxy-class *dwarfs* the Defiant - heck the *warp core* on the Enterprise-D, on its own, is more than half the length of the Defiant.

But, compared to other Federation ships of its size (Oberth-class? Even the old Miranda-class that the Reliant belonged to?) it was INCREDIBLY powerful.

The stats, crew, and upgrades on this one I've very excited about. They look good.

Just a shame the mini is so hideous and so badly out of scale...but I'm seeing some 3d printed models that aren't half bad, and put the thing more in the kinda/roughly/ballpark scale that the Ent-D, Excelsior, old Constitution, etc all inhabit. Which is good enough!
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Obsolete Man
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Andrew Parks wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We listen very carefully to all feedback, and we appreciate your passion.

For the Defiant, we spent quite a bit of time playing that ship. It is a powerful little vessel and did quite well in playtests. The Hull usually reflects the relative size of the ship; that is why it has a 3 Hull, but the ablative armor kicks in with its card text.

For its attack power, we base this partially on its ship size but also on the nature of its weapon strength. One of the Defiant's signature attacks is the Quantum Torpedoes, easily one of the game's most powerful weapons so far. Two weapon slots alternating being Quantum and Photon Torpedoes and you'll barely even remember it has a Primary Weapon attack, quite honestly.

Regarding Sisko's Skill #, this is a judgment call based on watching countless episodes, as well as Sisko's overall status within the fleet. While he is a capable leader, his primary role is commanding DS9. In battle, he is effective but did not seem as strong as many other captains. Regardless, he has an Elite Talent Upgrade which signifies he is capable of surprises. Also, you should not underestimate his special ability. Being able to re-roll a die every single round, without spending an Action or any other cost, is very tough over the course of a battle. It's particularly nice in combination with torpedoes, when you're spending your target lock and then getting to re-roll a die as well. And if you don't need it on attack, well then now you have it for defense. It can be quite nice.

And of course there is always the possibility of future versions that reflect him at a more seasoned point in his career! :cool:

As a general note, we also always have overall game balance to consider. We know that you will not all agree with the stats that we've assigned, but please know that we do not make these decisions casually. We talk and analyze, we playtest, we evaluate, and then we make a final call.

On a final note regarding both Sisko and the Defiant, there was a time during playtests that the ship was dominating everything. It has a lot of options, it's cheap, it's maneuverable, it has a rear firing arc, and it's the first Federation ship with a Tech Upgrade. We hope that you'll find it fills out your Federation fleet nicely! :cool:

Andrew


Excellent response!

I'm astonished that anyone can complain about the Defiant's stats. It has better shields than a Klingon battleship. It has a very high defense rating for this game. It can carry surfeit of advanced weapon systems and it's virtually immune to critical hits. If anything, it's too powerful. Of course it doesn't have the same hull rating as the Enterprise. The Enterprise-D is humongous and half the time when you do hull damage you're hitting the bowling alley or the racquetball court or the Chuck-E-Cheese. Its vast size also allows it to have redundancy and to have lots of weapon systems.

I get that for some people Defiant is their favorite ship. It is really cool. But the notion that a ship the size of a frigate should pack the punch of a battleship is just fanboy-ness.

Sisko is my favorite captain after Kirk and Archer. But it looks to me like he has a very reasonable skill rating. Just because he's a cool dude doesn't mean that he's epic in battle. He's way above average (average is actually 1) and his skill level is superior... 6 is very good. Throw in an Elite talent and his special ability and he's nobody to mess with. Then again, I think Picard should have been an 8 so what do I know?
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First off Andrew, hats off for replying to a post like this, explaining, but not debating. I'm even more impressed than I was by your constant upkeep to the FAQ!

Andrew Parks wrote:
It has a lot of options, it's cheap, it's maneuverable, it has a rear firing arc, and it's the first Federation ship with a Tech Upgrade. We hope that you'll find it fills out your Federation fleet nicely! :cool:


Yes! I can't wait for this this ship. I feel compelled to play Fed only (though I'll add crew or equipment - no captains tho!) and they are decidedly missing teeth. This will help even the scales!

I'd buy a swarm of them, but that'd be so unthematic I couldn't stand myself... oh heck I'll probly buy three just for the upgrades.
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Xander Fulton
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fuwalawala wrote:
Well first off At the beginning of TOS, and TNG Kirk and Pircard respcetivly are in command of the FLAG SHIP of the Federation. They are in a position that is a Life Time Goal for Career Officers.


Mmmm...ehhh...Picard was, sure. At least, I think that was mentioned in dialog. Kirk never was, though. At least during the Enterprise's 5-year-mission, she was just one of a dozen Constitution-class cruisers exploring the galaxy. Kirk was just very lucky, that's all.

fuwalawala wrote:
Sisko at the begining of DS9 is the commander of a obscure outpost. The Card for Sisko is let us say represents Season 3-4, He a new Capt. He is still in his first command position, albeit an Important one.


Not only that - but if you re-watch the pilot episode, he was half about to be drummed out of Star Fleet for the dissatisfaction he'd been feeling since his wife died at Wolf 359.

All that said - the Sisko card we are seeing is the bald-goateed Sisko of later seasons. If they'd given us the season 1 Sisko with PS6, and then some time on issued the later-season Sisko with PS9...that would have been a nice touch!
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Thanks for the response! Testing does trump all and I see the quantum torpedoes being a sine qua non here, which I'd completely forgotten about, so this answers a lot of concerns. A lot of the dissatisfaction seems to be coupled with the BoP seeming so powerful, esp. when added to the Vor'cha and Negh'var which seem like they're in almost every fleet, but maybe that'll even out in play a lot more than it appears.
 
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Personally I was happy with Sisko's captain card, after seeing Riker's I thought they might go with a 5 for him so 6 is pretty good and his ability is pretty nice. The image they used for his card is pretty awesome.



As for the Defiant, as mentioned it was designed to fight the Borg and stat-wise it seems quite good, changing critical hits against it into regular hits also seems like a tip of the hat to its advanced (at the time) Ablative Armor.



All in all, looking forward to the Defiant expansion.
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Don D.
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I agree with some of the sentiment in the OP but I think the ire is directed at the wrong place. It is not the stats of the card that I think are the problem- its the stats RELATIVE TO ITS COST! I think the ship with those stats is very thematic and actually hits the nail on the head, but I was expecting it to be a 20 point ship that could be super viable for a 4/5 ship federation swarm. No one who knows Trek can disagree: that is what the ship was designed to be, a cheap ship made with a lot of teeth to hold its own in warfare.
 
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Dave Benhart
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I used a mock-up of the Defiant in a test of next months OP earlier this week. I like it and I didn't even have it loaded up with cloak, q-torps, etc. It's probably the first ship I'll buy two of, except for the base set for more dice, templates, and 3 solid ships.
 
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I just want to give Andrew two big thumbs up and a pat on the back. It's clear from his responses and presence here that he truly loves the game and is all about preserving game balance. Hopefully WK will follow his lead for some of their "other" games.
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dond80 wrote:
I agree with some of the sentiment in the OP but I think the ire is directed at the wrong place. It is not the stats of the card that I think are the problem- its the stats RELATIVE TO ITS COST! I think the ship with those stats is very thematic and actually hits the nail on the head, but I was expecting it to be a 20 point ship that could be super viable for a 4/5 ship federation swarm. No one who knows Trek can disagree: that is what the ship was designed to be, a cheap ship made with a lot of teeth to hold its own in warfare.


The cost to stats is pretty consistent with all the other ships (add all the stats together and double it). If the Squad Point cost was to be cheaper, then the stats would have to be decreased. The two are locked at the hip as it were

You can still field 4 of these - 1 Defiant + Sisko + 3 Generics is only 94 points. Leaves you enough for a couple of non generic captains or some upgrades.
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dond80 wrote:
I think the ship with those stats is very thematic and actually hits the nail on the head, but I was expecting it to be a 20 point ship that could be super viable for a 4/5 ship federation swarm.


That runs straight into the problem of how ships are costed (stats x2 = point cost). To make this a 20 point ship, you need to reduce some number of stats by two. You can still get a decent swarm of four Defiants (1 name brand + 3 generics at 22 points each = 90, giving some room for a couple upgrades/named captains).
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Kudos to Andrew. I am trying to imagine what my mindset would be if every day I came in to work and had to deal with the griping that he has to. I would just be facepalming all day long.

I just don't understand why it is so difficult for folks on BGG, who normally are so up in arms about game balance, to understand that certain liberties have to be taken in games based on licensed media in order to maintain that balance. Defiant is such a Mary Sue ship for a lot of fans (ABLATIVE ARMOR!! SUPER MANEUVERABLE!! QUANTUM TORPEDOES!! CLOAKING!!! BUILT TO BEAT THE BORG!!!) that some folks would only be happy if it came with a card that said: Action: You win. Play only on USS Defiant.

I swear... between the griping over "balance" and the "scale issues" (in a game where your actual playing pieces are all identical plastic squares), I am just so frustrated with some of this game's community. I have started counting posts in every thread I read on the forums to see how long it takes before someone has to mention "scale" or "model quality" or the perceived lack of awesomeness of whatever their favorite ship/captain is. Don't misunderstand... I am not some apologist for Wizkids where they can do no wrong in my eyes. The paint jobs on the ships do leave a lot to be desired and the tiny Constitution is irritating on the basis of perceived value. But this game is a blast to play and, IMHO, is an improvement on, and better than, X-Wing in most regards.
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