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Subject: Love the game, but disappointed in the presentation rss

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Rob Palkowski
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So after being introduced to A: NR via OCTGN, I quickly acquired a copy of the game for myself, and am happy to have done so. However, I have to say, I found myself slightly disappointed in what I paid for in some respects.

My next-most-recent acquisition was Dominion, and the stock upon which the cards are printed, and the provided means to sort the hozillion cards struck me as a vastly superior package.

With Android, let's be honest: the box could have been the size of a stack of several decks of cards, notwithstanding the LP-sized board of tokens to punch out. There is much wasted space in the box, leaving the cards to end up bouncing around in shipment, which resulted in a couple of the cards coming to me with already-curling corners. The cards themselves seem thinner and more prone to damage, which is slightly off-putting as well. Sorting out some means to keep the contents under control is pretty much a mandatory project.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've seen all the Dominion Storage Solution threads, but I don't have eleventeen expansions (yet). And I don't regret my purchase of A:NR, but I just got to wondering if others had the same experience as I did in being underwhelmed after opening the box.

Now, to go scare up some old film canisters to store the tokens in!
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Tom
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The box isn't chosen for its efficiency. It's chosen because it looks good on a shelf in the store.

Yeah the cards are thin, but most players sleeve them, so it's a non-issue.
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Evan
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Yeah, the box is big for what it contains, but once you have a second core and/or a few datapacks, it's a good place to consolidate them. (Although longboxes are certainly tidier.) The cardboard insert seemed to protect my cards well enough.

I don't know that a Dominion-style organizer insert would be very useful for a game with only 1-3 of each card, but maybe I'm just biased by the fact that I hate everything about the Dominion inserts with every fiber of my being.
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Rob Palkowski
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kobold47 wrote:
Yeah, the box is big for what it contains, but once you have a second core and/or a few datapacks, it's a good place to consolidate them. (Although longboxes are certainly tidier.) The cardboard insert seemed to protect my cards well enough.
I can see that, I suppose, but still- rather than a single LP-sized tokenboard, they could have divvied it up into smaller sections so as to fit in the center "channel" in the box, or something. Or done more than put all of the cards, free-floating, into two Ziploc bags. Or at least put all of the Corp cards in one bag, and all the Runner cards in the other.

Quote:
I don't know that a Dominion-style organizer insert would be very useful for a game with only 1-3 of each card, but maybe I'm just biased by the fact that I hate everything about the Dominion inserts with every fiber of my being.
I don't know that a Dominion-style "one slot for every card" type box insert would be a good idea, but perhaps a slot for Runner-neutral, Corp-neutral, Identities, and each faction, and one for the tokens? Even that much would be a help and still have tons of room for more space.

(Out of curiosity, what don't you like about the Dominion inserts? I ask only having the core game thus far.)
 
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Andrew
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FinalPhalanx wrote:
The box isn't chosen for its efficiency. It's chosen because it looks good on a shelf in the store.

Yeah the cards are thin, but most players sleeve them, so it's a non-issue.


That, and it's harder to walk out with one under one's shirt.

Regardless, it is surprising FFG does not have a better insert for the LCGs, considering most of them have at least 4 decks. I haven't taken box designer 101, so maybe there are logistical issues. It also probably doesn't deter anyone from buying the game, so there is no real incentive to change the inserts. One nice byproduct are the BGG photos of inventive solutions.

Small World will forever hold my crown of awesome box design. It even has room for the punch-out token scraps.

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Alex Rockwell
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So, apparently the only thing to bitch about in netrunner is the packaging that it came in?
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Rob Palkowski
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Alexfrog wrote:
So, apparently the only thing to bitch about in netrunner is the packaging that it came in?

I would assert that the cheap card stock is also a legitimate complaint, especially coming from Dominion at the same price-point.
 
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Alejandro G.
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I've had my core sets since September of last year and they still look pristine.

Card stock isn't an issue as players tend to sleeve them and not hold them like a gorilla...

I guess there's always something for someone.
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Rob Palkowski
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
Card stock isn't an issue as players tend to sleeve them and not hold them like a gorilla...
No one's holding the cards like gorillas, and I will likely eventually be getting sleeves for these cards, but that doesn't change the fact that a combination of the cheap card stock, said cards floating in a ziploc bag, and empty space in the box is the likely collective cause for some of the cards having been damaged (to wit: the aforementioned curled corners) before I even pierced the shrink-wrap.
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Jeramy Poulin
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DopeGhoti wrote:
There is much wasted space in the box, leaving the cards to end up bouncing around in shipment, which resulted in a couple of the cards coming to me with already-curling corners.



While the bouncing around of cards around is annoying, I have opened up over eighty boxes of Netrunner and not once noticed any damage to a single card (not even curling corners).
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Owen Compton
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I've found that, with 2 cores and one copy of everything up to Creation & Control, I have sleeved everything and I keep the factions in bags, separated up into separate bags by card type where the bags aren't big enough (mostly an issue as of C&C).

The result is that only with Creation & Control did I have to start storing cards in the Creation & Control box as well as the Core Set box. This probably has something to do with the fact that I stack my cards vertically rather than putting them on one of their sides and stacking them laterally across the box interior. Instead I pile them on top of each other. If it I had them sideways on then I might even have more room inside. Also I've just remembered that I still have all the spare copies of the 3-of and 2-ofs from my 2nd core in the box, unsleeved, which are taking up space that I could just take out and leave on a shelf or something if I wanted to really make room for more.

It's been absolutely excellent for keeping the growing card collection and not having to keep copies of cards in bags outside the box.

EDIT: Oh and as for the Dominion inserts and why they are hateable: if you own a lot of Dominion expansions and insist on using the different boxes and their inserts in order to store the cards in then playing randomised games involving all sets (a very common practice) involves slugging out 6 or so boxes and trawling through them all to get the cards you need. It's nice that they have dividers for easy picking but if I was to just take out all the inserts and store as much as possible in fewer boxes then I could probably just find the cards we were playing with via alphabetical order and in much less time.

Another reason you might not like the inlay is because sometimes they print the section names slightly off centre and it means you're constantly checking the ones on either side of the one you want just to see if you've got the right one. Not a huge fuss, but if we're quibbling over Netrunner's box issues (fairly minimal given its potential as a storage place for your growing collection) then this probably counts too.

As it happens I love the inlays because the sense of order it brings really appeals to my OCD game components storage organisation obsession, even if it makes set up very time consuming, I was just playing Devil's Advocate devil
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Bob Gabel
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As a lover of A:NR, I too find the card stock to be pretty thin and cheap. However, I also play L5R, have played some Magic, Race ftG, Pokemon, and so on. I have found that the larger the commercial nature of the cards, the crappier the card stock is. Dominion is a great product, one of, if not the, best card stock I have ever seen in a game. If you use that as a standard, everything else is pretty much down hill.

Not saying you can't complain, I am totally there with you, just that it's not a very uncommon thing to see crappy card stock in these sorts of games.

Sad day...
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Rob Palkowski
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The Sacred Voice wrote:
EDIT: Oh and as for the Dominion inserts and why they are hateable: if you own a lot of Dominion expansions and insist on using the different boxes and their inserts in order to store the cards in then playing randomised games involving all sets (a very common practice) involves slugging out 6 or so boxes and trawling through them all to get the cards you need. It's nice that they have dividers for easy picking but if I was to just take out all the inserts and store as much as possible in fewer boxes then I could probably just find the cards we were playing with via alphabetical order and in much less time.
Oh, this, I totally understand. I can see myself lugging around perhaps two full-sized Dominion boxen once I finally pick up Intrigue, but once I get to a second expansion, I'll probably migrate to one all-in-one storage solution or another. Since I'm just getting started with it, I'm not too far down that particular rabbit hole (:
 
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Rob Palkowski
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Damocles346 wrote:
Dominion is a great product, one of, if not the, best card stock I have ever seen in a game. If you use that as a standard, everything else is pretty much down hill.
I suppose this is a very fair point; thanks for the dose of perspective.
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Sonny A.
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I got slightly inconvenienced by the Creation & Control packaging. It's three seperately wrapped decks with one of each. I had to sort them manually after that. I think I spent 5 minutes on it.

Worst part about Netrunner fo sho.
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Alejandro G.
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DopeGhoti wrote:
xpiredsodapop wrote:
Card stock isn't an issue as players tend to sleeve them and not hold them like a gorilla...
No one's holding the cards like gorillas, and I will likely eventually be getting sleeves for these cards, but that doesn't change the fact that a combination of the cheap card stock, said cards floating in a ziploc bag, and empty space in the box is the likely collective cause for some of the cards having been damaged (to wit: the aforementioned curled corners) before I even pierced the shrink-wrap.


...waste not, want not. (this is my box)

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SIMON WRAY
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I've never noticed the card stock of A:NR - too busy enjoying the great gameplay and awesome design/art. Dominion card art is crud in comparison.
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Andrew Duncan
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I completely understand your point about wasted space in the Netrunner box, but I think that complaining about the presentation of Netrunner in general, and especially compared to Dominion, is a little strange.

Netrunner is gorgeous! While some early Dominion cards look like they've been drawn by someone who'd never seen a human before.

I love Domion, it's probably my top played board game and I own every expansion, but in looks it shouldn't be compared to Netrunner. I don't want to put them too close together because I worry Intruige would burst into flame out of shame.
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Sonny A.
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xpiredsodapop wrote:

...waste not, want not. (this is my box)


Waay to neat.. This is mine

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The netrunner box is a waste of space, imo; but I don't keep everything sleeved unless I'm actually playing with them:



The long box to the left of the remote is all of netrunner. I sleeved the ids and used them as dividers. The two other boxes are all of dominion in 9 card binder sleeves (the 10 ofs fit nicely in a single pocket, and money is just rubber banded on the side, along with the draft cards).

Its also worth noting that I didn't buy 3x coreset, i just bought 1 + the cards I was missing on ebay.
 
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Tunguska's CPA
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If your cards were damaged before you even took the shrink off, contact FFG and request replacements. I've not heard of people getting damaged cards in a new set, though I'm sure it's happened. Anything is possible.

Another comment on Dominion's card quality is that you are expected to incessantly shuffle those cards many many times per game, and you'll probably play the game many times as well. And even then, those cards get worn pretty fast.
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Tikkchik Fen TikkTikk
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I love this game. The original was brilliant and I think FFG has done a great job updating it and fixing some problems with the original.

But while the mechanics are solid I think it is fair to criticize other aspects of the game.

The core set box is very nice. But that insert is very disappointing. Not including three of every non-identity card was a mistake. Why have card numbers in a non-collectible game. If they are going to have card numbers, the way they chose organize the cards by number is bizarre. The way they number the expansions is just thoughtless. The card faces and backs are too busy and will not age well (in terms of style, not durability). The expansion inserts are a missed opportunity (see Magic's expansion inserts for what I consider doing them well). The whole Creation & Control expansion boggles my mind, from the box to the box insert to the flyer inserts to way the cards were collated individually to the theme. FFG requires opaque sleeves in tournament play, but they only sell transparent sleeves themselves. There are no FFG branded sleeves, deck boxes, or card storage solutions.

Some of these are nitpicks, some more than that. Some have easy solutions, some don't. Obviously much is subjective.

I don't think it's unfair to criticize FFG, especially for some of these that seem to me to be caused by simply not paying attention to details. I think it's fair and necessary to criticize *any* game for aspects beyond the core mechanics, including packaging, aesthetics, material quality.

For the record I don't think there is any problem with Netrunner's card stock. It's on par with Magic and Bicycle--and most casino--poker cards which sets the (low) bar for acceptability. They aren't KEM, but they aren't Yu-gi-oh either.

 
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TikkchikFenTikktikk wrote:
FFG requires opaque sleeves in tournament play, but they only sell transparent sleeves themselves. There are no FFG branded sleeves, deck boxes, or card storage solutions.


http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm...
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Tunguska's CPA
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TikkchikFenTikktikk wrote:
[...] Not including three of every non-identity card was a mistake. Why have card numbers in a non-collectible game.


The core set is designed for the casual player to be able to pick up and quickly start playing (e.g. all green and grey cards with red backs, all red and grey cards with blue backs aaannnddd we're off!).

According to FFG, despite what us BGG users think, the majority of their ANR sales are to casual players, so having the design of the core set focus on them is ideal.

Quote:

If they are going to have card numbers, the way they chose organize the cards by number is bizarre. The way they number the expansions is just thoughtless.


The expansions are numbered to be self-contained within each datapack (set of 20 cards) and within the cycle (6 datapacks). I'm not sure there's a better way to number the cards within them. Assigning a range to each faction for the entire cycle would lead to millions of "I just bought Opening Moves, why are the card numbers all over the place? Am I missing cards?" followed up with "No, you're only supposed to have cards 1, 19, 44, 66, 90 [...]"

Card numbers allow easy reference for the long-term. When we're on cycle 8, stating "Genesis Cycle, 55" will quickly ID the card. Additionally, from a logistics stand point, the numbering system helps FFG AND the customer with inventory/quality control. "Hey, I need another copy of Spin Cycle 13, mine came with ink smears" or "I just bought Mala Tempora and I got 4 of 25 and 2 of 26 - please fix" (oddly enough, that happened to me with another card game).

Yes, the cards have names, too, but there is a good chance that FFG's spares are organized by card number. It's much easier to send you a replacement of Spin Cycle 12 if Warehouse Worker Jeeves goes to the shelf and finds the number rather than Jeeves trying to find the card by name.

Quote:

[...]The whole Creation & Control expansion boggles my mind, from the box to the box insert to the flyer inserts to way the cards were collated individually to the theme.


What exactly boggles the mind? They probably organized the print-sheet in such a way that it had one of each card and then you print, cut, wrap and put three in each box. The box insert reduces movement of the cards (a little) and the flyer... what was wrong with it? Like the datapack flyers, it has a bit of fluff, and then, being a deluxe expansion, it has a card list and some deck ideas. What was wrong with it?

Quote:

FFG requires opaque sleeves in tournament play, but they only sell transparent sleeves themselves. There are no FFG branded sleeves, deck boxes, or card storage solutions.
[...]


As others point out, FFG sells deck boxes, token bags, clear sleeves, opaque sleeves, and art sleeves (though no ANR art. Yet. Jerks.).

Maybe I'm the odd man out in that I bought the game and tossed the box after a week...
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Gregory Pettigrew
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TikkchikFenTikktikk wrote:
FFG requires opaque sleeves in tournament play, but they only sell transparent sleeves themselves.


Only if you are playing with promos. Otherwise, transparent sleeves are fine.
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